[Janel]

ITO, cloth braid. MAKI, to wrap.

In response to a comment made about 'ito maki', I did a quick Google search and found, Buck, Thomas (1993). Tsuka-maki, The Art of Japanese Sword Restoration. Colorado Token Kai Quarterly, v1, n1, pp. 3-8.

It is an illustrated booklet on a web page.

[Michael P]

Janel,

it is quite funny that you post this link now as I just finished doing this one:



The wrap is far from perfect, but it's only the second time I attempt a wrap. The braid in the middle of the picture is a tanto sized sageo I'm making this week.

Michael

[Sebastián Urresti]

Hi Micheal,
I have a question for you with all due respect: Is your weight the correct for the braid on the photo? It seems to be too tight.
Hope to help.
Hughs,
Sebas

[Michael P]

Sebastián Urresti, on Jul 18 2007, 09:11 PM, said:

Hi Micheal,
I have a question for you with all due respect: Is your weight the correct for the braid on the photo? It seems to be too tight.
Hope to help.
Hughs,
Sebas

Sebas,

it is incorrect indeed, well spotted The counterweight should be more than twice what it is. This braid is just done to "work out" and experiment a bit, it will be done again in silk once the real hardware is finally home... this time with correct counterweights. Same goes for the ito-maki, it will be redone on a new tsuka core once I'm confident enough for that wrap style.

There are a few things that get me about that braid structure:

• very tight and flexible at the same time
  
• for unknown reasons, the edge seems to shrink every now and then... to pop back out 2 moves later
  
• even tho the width is mostly constant, the halves change size
  
• the ridge in the center of the north side of the braid

I did a few variations on that structure in the last weeks, some including a different thread weight per color and asymmetric color placement. The results were quite fun to see

Michael

[Sebastián Urresti]

Hi Michael,
Well, I´m glad that you know the right proportion! I never try a 16 yarn braid, 12 is my biggest number. If it´s a flat braid will always be flexible. About the popin out, I guess that happens because your working with little weight. I braided cotton once and I remember that the counterweight proportion was different. Is that wool? I think that the flexibility of the material can also change this proportion. I think that silk doesn´t strecth and that is fundamental for Kumihimo.
Hope to help.
I want to see your other braid results!
HUGHS,
Sebas

[Michael P]

Sebastián Urresti, on Jul 19 2007, 10:25 PM, said:

Hi Michael,
Well, I´m glad that you know the right proportion! I never try a 16 yarn braid, 12 is my biggest number. If it´s a flat braid will always be flexible. About the popin out, I guess that happens because your working with little weight. I braided cotton once and I remember that the counterweight proportion was different. Is that wool? I think that the flexibility of the material can also change this proportion. I think that silk doesn´t strecth and that is fundamental for Kumihimo.
Hope to help.
I want to see your other braid results!
HUGHS,
Sebas

Hi Sebas,

You should try 32 bobbins (and over 32), as there are many things that you just can't do with less threads and it's quite fun to increase the count. For more than 32 bobbins, you'll either need a new top on your marudai (simple braids) or an extra set of semi-circular arms to make a dai-marudai (imbricated braids and x-rep braids). Flat braids are not always flexible, I've made a few on a marudai that are quite stiff and all of the ayatakedai ones are really stiff. The material on this one is cotton, cotton doesn't work at all for me as it compacts too much. I much prefer silk but warping 00 thread in large quantities drives me insane and silk is quite expensive to use... I get 550m of cotton for the price of 12.5m of an equivalent thickness silk bundle. However, the quality of a braid done in silk is something else altogether... you can get details at scales that would be impossible for cotton.

Ongoing thread on SFI documenting some of the attempts at sageo making (and related fun) of a small group. There are some other pictures on the kumi2 yahoo group, but the majority of the braids I did never got photographed as my wife took them as soon as they were off the marudai. My blog might also get some braid pictures in the future, at the moment it has pictures of the equipment that should get delivered real soon now (sea mail delivery is so slow) and some rants.

Maybe we should open an extra kumihimo thread so Janel doesn't get too angry for the thread jack

Off to bed,
Michael

[Janel]

I could just change the title of this thread! No biggie.

[Janel]

PS. It is nice to see you here again Sebas! And, is this you on the right? You Tube musicians-ponle la clave - complejo bantu

[Sebastián Urresti]

Hi Janel!
Yes it´s me! We were giving a show in an Anphitheater here in Rosario. Did you like it? It´s fun! A mix of religious and secular aspects of the same culture, that´s why is called complex.
Thanks for your welcoming, I was a little busy with my children and I couldn´t get to a computer these days. I still have to take a photo of my bench. Nice thread! We can peep on owr fellows´ benches without any embarrassment!
I think that Michael is right about changing threads, I´m the #1 doing that... :S
Hey Michael, nice things on the links! I didn´t know that some extra arms could be added to the Marudai. Cool! And 32 tama is nice big number, I should try, but I´m 12 behind and I need to ask to a friend to turn them. You are quite a braider, huh? To tell you the truth I only use one kind of yarn (by now) that is very thin and comes in 70 m. bobbins... That´s why all the flat braids that I do are flexible and as I told you, not bigger than 12 bobbins each. I´m sure that silk is "THE" material but to train you can use almost any yarn, right? I agree about cotton and for my 8 round braids is too stiff (that´s the word that I was looking in the dictonary and I couldn´t find!) I will keep on braiding, is very nice to carve a piece and put a braid done by you as well.
HUGHS,
Sebas

[Janel]

The YouTube performance is very enjoyable. I am pleased to see you in it!. I changed the title of this thread a little, and will tweak it again, to show that kumihimo is again being discussed here. It is great to be learning more about it and what the members are teaching themselves.

Janel

[Michael P]

Sebastián Urresti, on Jul 20 2007, 03:11 PM, said:

Hey Michael, nice things on the links! I didn´t know that some extra arms could be added to the Marudai. Cool! And 32 tama is nice big number, I should try, but I´m 12 behind and I need to ask to a friend to turn them. You are quite a braider, huh? To tell you the truth I only use one kind of yarn (by now) that is very thin and comes in 70 m. bobbins... That´s why all the flat braids that I do are flexible and as I told you, not bigger than 12 bobbins each. I´m sure that silk is "THE" material but to train you can use almost any yarn, right? I agree about cotton and for my 8 round braids is too stiff (that´s the word that I was looking in the dictonary and I couldn´t find!) I will keep on braiding, is very nice to carve a piece and put a braid done by you as well.
HUGHS,
Sebas

Sebas,

Thanks, I still have a lot of work in front of me... as soon as the hardware gets delivered, I have to learn how to use the takadai properly

The dai marudai (with the extra arms) was a very recent invention, I think... If I recall correctly, it was the solution the Domyo school came with to recreate a 144 bobbins braid found in a temple (the saidaiji gumi, if my memory serves right). The plate at the center would hold 60 bobbins and the 2 side arms would hold 42 bobbins each. My head hurts just looking at the braiding diagram of that one. Another school came up with a 1m diameter marudai to recreate the same braid. 32 bobbins is still a nice number on a marudai, 36 being the highest bobbin count I've seen on a regular sized marudai until now. If you are interested, I can send you the schematics to build a dai marudai, along with the saidaiji gumi diagram.

For the yarn, depending on the results you want, you can use almost every fiber known to man. Up to now, I've played with cotton, silk, rayon, hemp, metal thread, alcantara and leather. The advantage of 00 sized silk is that it is the closest to what Japanese braiders really use(d), doesn't fray and gives a nice detail control.

In Japan, you can buy pre-warped silk for kumihimo in the following packaging:

• 8 bobbins pack (8 bundles of 90 threads each)
  
• 16 bobbins pack (16 bundles of 45 threads each)
  
• 24 bobbins pack (24 bundles of 30 threads each)
  
• 32 bobbins pack (32 bundles of 25 threads each)

and pre-cut in either 2.7m, 3.3m, 4.2m (...) lengths.
Technically, those packages supply all the silk you need to braid one obijime in standard size. There are also packages for haori-himo, those come as one bundle with an "eye" already braided in the middle. The 2.7m length is for the braid body and the longer lengths are for the weft bobbins (if braiding on an ayatakedai)... even tho some marudai braids do also call for different lengths in the same braid (mostly braids adapted from an ayatakedai). Seeing that importing those packages costs too much for everyone but shops, most people warp their own length from the finest silk yarn one can buy anywhere (size 00).

If your friend accepts to turn extra bobbins, try to ask him extra lots regularly... there's no such thing as too many bobbins once you've been bitten by the braiding bug It is also nice to have bobbins of different weight, as some braids require different pull at some point. Out of curiosity, do you have a warping frame (or reel)? Those become very useful once you go over 16 bobbins with fine yarn.

Michael

[Sebastián Urresti]

Hi Folks!
Long time since my last post... First I want to thank you Michael for you offer, I´ll PM you for the schematic, although I know that I feel like a mongrel in a big dog´s fight... Saidai-ji was made with 56 bobbins and I think that the 144 bobbins´ braid was the Chuzon-ji one, that can be simplified with 72 bobbins only...
I´ve only used cotton and the yarn that I told you that I think that is polyester...brb...NO! Nylon! It´s a nice material, the result is quite impresive and feels nice on skin, as the only thing that I carve are pendants I use the braids for that porpouse. Not the most nobel material but a very good response!
If I´m not wrong you can find something like those packages in www.braidershand.com. Never tried silk yet... I have to try, the results, as you said, is beautiful, but let me tell you that you can get a lot of details using nylon too! (the guy loved the material... )
Yeah! I know about braiding bug bites! Thing is I have to go to his house and is not so near... But as for different weights I was thinking about drilling a hole on the Tama side and put a lid to change the fillings with lead ammunitions of different sizes... Just a thought!
I posted I humble Kumihimo Tutorial some time ago here at TCP, take a look and please tell me what you think about it.
See you next post.
Hugs,
Sebas

[Michael P]

Sebastián Urresti, on Jul 25 2007, 05:48 PM, said:

Hi Folks!
Long time since my last post... First I want to thank you Michael for you offer, I´ll PM you for the schematic, although I know that I feel like a mongrel in a big dog´s fight... Saidai-ji was made with 56 bobbins and I think that the 144 bobbins´ braid was the Chuzon-ji one, that can be simplified with 72 bobbins only...

Good point on the Saidai-ji vs Chuson-ji The instructions for both braids (I only noticed now that there were 2 different structures described) are included in the document containing the dai-marudai schematics. If you are interested, the dimensions of the other stands can be yours as soon as they are delivered

Quote

Yeah! I know about braiding bug bites! Thing is I have to go to his house and is not so near... But as for different weights I was thinking about drilling a hole on the Tama side and put a lid to change the fillings with lead ammunitions of different sizes... Just a thought!

For my current tama, I drilled through wooden bobbins then passed a bolt and screwed a nut on the other side. It works nicely but could do with some improvement (it is too light). I am now thinking of replacing the bolt by a longer one, which would allow me to insert washers on both sides for extra weight. I know somebody who uses a similar method (minus the wooden bobbin) and she has made tama from 50g to 300g using just bolt/washers/nuts/thermoshrink.

As for the bug bites, yeah... I'm currently trying to find a room in my house to accommodate the various stands and the associated stuff. With luck, said room could also host my wife's hobbies equipment (if not, I'll be in trouble).

Quote

I posted I humble Kumihimo Tutorial some time ago here at TCP, take a look and please tell me what you think about it.
See you next post.
Hugs,
Sebas

Yup, seen it ages ago... I lurked here for like 12 months before joining