[Mark Strom]

I have just recently completed a complex and lengthy proposal. Usually I do not charge for design or bid work as it is usually short and simple. The project is not in my usual area of carving and larger than I normally work. This commission proposal took quite awhile and at my usual hourly rate amounted to a $700 process. Granted that if I get the commission this is a small amount and is figured in but if I don't I just gave away my time and money.

I do have a normal process for commissions but this did not quite fit into that method and I was caught off guard by requests for further information at the last meeting. To be honest there was also the fear of losing the commission by charging for that much time...a ridiculous idea in hindsight. Charging would only prove me to be professional and send the message that my time was valuable, it would also have eliminated any fishing expeditions from the potential clients. Confidence and sound business practices sometimes evade me.

My question is...what are your policies concerning design time and bid work? Do you charge for it or not? What is your reasoning behind your method. Would really like to hear other ideas and approaches to this dilemma.

Mark

[Janel]

Thanks Mark, for starting this discussion topic. Best of luck with the outcome of the bid/proposal.

Unfortunately I have not figured out how to include this step into negotiations for a commission. Consequently I have suffered in this past year, when three commissions or agreements to do a specific piece for the client resulted in no sale, or canceled while being worked on, or indefinitely postponed. My design time is added to the overall price of the piece, which is determined by the hours involved with completing the piece. That means I lose when the sale is not made. Not a good way to do business.

Prior to last year, I took no commission work, except one piece for a proven client. I will gain by the discussion of this topic, and by re-reading the other conversations in related topics which occurred in 2007 on TCP.

Janel

[Mark Strom]

I did receive the commission and sometime in the near future will be spending 5 weeks carving outside in the cold windy winter of North Carolina.

I must admit major surprise that Janel and I are the only people on the forum that have problems in this area. There are others on this forum that take commissions or simply price their work for sale...is this not part of the process? Is it not ever a problem? I know most artist do not think of themselves as business people but if you are selling your work that is what you are while you are selling it. You aren't standing there thinking you should just give the piece to them, you want something for it!

The business thread on this forum has the least amount of topics and the least amount of comments. Post a thread here and you can hear the echoes of the keys on the keyboard in the void. My career long aggravation has been that I have had to learn all my business processes the hard way. Consultants that know how the art/craft market work are rare. Normal business practices cannot always be applied to our work. Why is it that Artist/crafts people that are willing to discuss these problems are just as rare? We are all in the same boat here. This forum is filled with advice, opinions, tutorials, resources and references for processes and procedures....except when it comes to the business end of it all.

For people trying to survive from their art, making it is the easy part...making a living from it is what is hard. Just asking for some friendly opinions or ideas here to make the "making a living" part easier. Anybody out there?

Mark

[Mark Strom]

Clive,
Guess I need to relocate to your side of the world!
I should re-phrase that and say selling enough of the work at a fair price to make a living. If selling was that easy just because the work was good then there would be less people on this forum that had day jobs. Good work does not necessarily translate into a good living, at least not here in the US!

Mark

[Mark Strom]

Thanks for the viewpoints but unfortunately none of them addressed the issue of how to or not to charge for design time.

Mark

[Karl Carvalho]

Mark Strom, on Jan 3 2008, 07:10 PM, said:

Charging would only prove me to be professional and send the message that my time was valuable, it would also have eliminated any fishing expeditions from the potential clients.

Aloha Mark,

In my opinion, I think you answered your own question. Freebie design and consultation may be useful in a budding career, but a mature, established artist should project a professional approach. Architects, attorneys etc. usually have a one hour, no charge, first-time meet. That allows a no-pressure look-see for both sides as well as an opportunity for the artist to show his/her portfolio and determine the feasibility of proceeding further. Preliminary costs, including the cost of design can and should be discussed, at that point. That is usually a good starting point to plan an overall budget. If you don't work that cost in early in the process, it will be left out.

Considering the work of architects or interior/graphic designers (the closest analogies that I can think of), they are reimbursed for concepts, plans and even locating suitable materials. They don't even do the work. So, just because the artist/craftsman is the whole show in one, why should they not be paid for that part? The efficiency of designer/craftsman is a whole hell of a lot better. Those other professions charge upward (here) of $90-125/hr and some goto $300 or better.
For the artist, there are several ways to go:
1) a flat design fee, based on past experience and the first meet, for a straight forward project. It should cover time to plan, design, drawings and locating whatever is needed to pull it together (such as tools or materials). Provide a tangible, such as drawings or samples. You will be glad that you did.
2) a deposit that is a little more advanced than the fee. It would be something to draw on if you have to move fast to lock in some hard to obtain material. Running back to the client to get a draw while six other guys are breathing down the supplier's neck is too stressful and statistically like going to Vegas. And buying it on your own dime, hoping that the client will come through, will guarantee disappointment eventually. (My adventures with koa, which has gone up to $60/bf, is the example.)
3) a deposit, with periodic statements, for complex projects. Any balance remaining, by mutual agreement, would be applied to the actual project or returned if they decide to go somewhere else for the work. This approach asks you to accept the designer hat and let go of your "baby" if that's what the client wants. At least you got paid for it.

We have many millionaires here (top five state in the US) who commission work. I've lost track of how many times myself and my compadres have designed something, only to have it taken elsewhere. I've learned not to let that happen anymore. To just let unbilled design and setup time eat into your cost lowers your profit; you will be making less than your business plan predicts. An additional benefit is to weed out non-serious clients. Believe me, nothing will get you angrier than to find out later that you were set up by a client who always had someone else in mind and just used you to cover lesser design talent.

Finally, the artist/craftsman must be a professional about all of this. After all, someone is entrusting you with money. Flakiness and an amateur approach does not cut it. Keep your word and leave the prima donna at home. Be as honest as you can; if you are out of your comfort zone or in uncharted waters, tell the client or be prepared to return some funds. At true client will show their colors and usually stick with you. In the end, your reputation is your most important asset.

Hope this helps. Got to go. I literally just got an email from a potential client who just received a full blown Art Nouveau church doorway with silver hardware and French art glass, who does not have clue as to how to install it. Don't tell anyone, but neither do I. Not yet.

KC

[Phil White]

This is the first time that I have seen this thread.

Well said, Karl, and good to hear from you again!

For me, the cost for all my work is based on a flat hourly rate, regardless if it is for design, sculpting a model, carving or casting. Since the initial design phase is where the whole artwork is rooted, it makes sense to me to charge the same rate. After all, im most of the largest studios, this design phase is what you are actually paying for, as a client. The actual art "work" is often carried out by carvers or sculptors that are employed by the artist, following the original design concept.

And Ford, Your anecdote about the lady who wanted a kitty still has me laughing.

Many years ago, someone approachd me who wanted a large coat of arms carved for a golf and country club. He had seen the polychromed sculpture that I had carved hanging in the reception of the Canadian Heraldic Authority, as well as one that was hanging over the entrance to another national institution nearby. When he realised that I had carved both, he decided that the club "needed" to have a piece of my work. When the discussion came down to my price, which it inevitably must, I explained to him that there would be a cost of about 2,000 in materials and about a month's work. After a long pause he said " so this could be about $5,000 then? After another long pause, and an explanation of how much my hourly rate was he asked " so, do you know anyone else who could do it?"

A couple of years ago, after having developed a bit more of a name for myself I suppose, I had a similar conversation that started off on the same tone, but when the subject of price came up, the response was "oh, is that all it is going to cost us?"

Phil

[Karl Carvalho]

ford hallam, on Jan 12 2008, 10:29 AM, said:

On the other hand if you work as an artist then I think it is simpler. You charge what you think you are worth and/or can command. No hourly rate involved.
regards, Ford

Aloha Ford and Phil,

Not to put too fine a point on it, but getting that deposit into your account is the trick. Accounting for your time is up to the individual, but rare is the artist/craftsman who can command clients to drop a check on the table right off the bat. (I am reminded of supermodel Daisey Fuentes, who said "I don't get out of bed for less than $10,000.")
Might it be that an artist of high stature, known for a certain genre, can deliver whatever he/she sees fit...with costs rolled up as one, big number? Oppose that to a potential client who has certain goals and wants to be involved in the design process. (We have a saying out here, "It's a hundred an hour or a hundred fifty if you help me.")
I guess what I am saying, crudely, is that at some point, their money has to become your money. The earlier in the process that happens, the smoother it goes. A mercenary attitude, but I am what I am.

KC