[AlainTernet]

Hello !
This is my first post here. Please excuse my bad English, this is not my primary language.
For this Christmas I want to give me a gift for the shop: a high speed grinder.
I have make a lot of search and reading on the subject as much as possible and despite this, I still have
difficulty to choosing the righttool for my needs and especially for my bank account (I look for something
not mutch expensive than 500$, it is the maximum which my wife authorizes me)

I work mostly on mammoth ivory and mammoth bone, I already have two flex shaft Foredom with H30
handpiece but I look for something to make more detailed work and also something less heavy and tiring
because of my wrist problems. (I find that the flexshaft give a lot of vibration (harming details) and has
tendency to draw and brings resistance in movements)

According to my search, here some facts or myth about air turbine vs micromotors and some important
questions for me. Please give me your advice...

Noise (My workshop is in the basement, below the room of my daughter)
- Air turbines seem to make more noise (Is it like dentist air turbine ??).
I have also to add the compressor noise… (how long could I run a small air turbine
without starting my 25 gallons shop compressor?)

Hand behavior and freedom
-I never Used Turbine or micromotor, but the turbine seem interesting because
they seem smaller in hand and the air feed tube seems very flexible giving more
freedom and beying less heavy on the wrist… The only experiment that I have with
something like micro motor is with a dremel and I do not like this (too heavy and
lack of control)… I imagine that a real micromotor it is better?

Cutting ability and burs
- Micromotors are a lot powerfull and can use bigger shaft bits (this is not a real issue
for me because I use Foredom for the big work)
- Air turbine accept only 1/16 burs (not a problem when you have a dentist friend
- Air turbine have much less toque. (It is a real problem to work especially on details ?)
- Air turbine seem to give more clean or smooth cut with 350 000 to 400 000 rpm while
micromotors have only (?) something like 35 000 - 45 000 rpm (it is enought ?)
Does this difference in speed make a real difference ?

Roughness
-Several people say that air turbines is more fragile and more often to break.
The replacement turbine price is rather high.

Foot control
- Many air turbine come with foot control (on-off or a variable pressure foot control).
- Many micromotors accept footswith but was not sold with.
I really appreciate the possibility to control speeds with the foot. And I imagine that
decreases the air consumption for a air turbine...

Price
- Micromotors seem to be more expensive. Air turbine seem to be more accessible (but not realy if
you consider the compressor price and turbine replacement).
- With my 500$ budget I think I am in the lower range micromotor, but I can buy mid/hight
range GRS 850 or NSK Presto air turbine.

Did I forget something?
Your advice will be largely appreciated

Alain

[Janel]

Welcome to The Carving Path Alain,

You have been doing your research! I have not experienced the air turbine, though when I began using a power tool it was a flex shaft Dremel. I agree, that the flex shaft causes wrist strain and is not easy to control for detail work. I use an NSK Elector, with the motor in the handpiece and a coiled electric cord connecting it to the controller which allows much more control. It does balk when applying much pressure during the roughing out stage, but that is infrequent. Roughing out takes hours or the first day, then for the days and weeks of detail work, I use hand tools. The NSK allows more control so that roughing out can be done more completely but I do not use it for detail work.

It seems that either machine will be expensive. Is there a used equipment source that might offer a less expensive tool to begin with? I am also interested in what others' experiences are with the air turbine might be. I have seen them demonstrated, but have not wanted the expense of compressor and additional technology in my limited space, so far.

Janel

[cneber]

Hi
although i'm a novice carver, i've been using an NSK Presto since 2005 for piercing and detail carvings on turned wood objects. It is very easy on the hand, no more noise than your normal dentist drill, and small enough to get into tight spaces. however, some things to consider: very little torque, my compressor cycles often, and i've caused premature bearing wear (and the bearings are ~120) from over-using or pushing its limits.

for roughing i had been using pneumatic pencil grinders and die grinders, however these also require significant CFMs (making compressor cycle often), are very noisy, and are one step above a chainsaw. so to get the torque for roughing, i added a foredom 1/6 hp SRBH motor flexshaft with the 44HT handpiece. within the 4 months of using it, i developed inflammatory joint disease in my hands, wrists and elbows, and now can't even grip the handpiece. furthermore, it is very noisy; i have to wear hearing protection and i can't work when the neighbors are home. probably i will be selling this soon.

after reading all the reviews on this site and getting recommendations, as well as talking to other artists who carve woodturnings, i (JUST this week) bought an NSK micro motor. for the last two days i've been using it ALL DAY on several pieces i'm working on, ranging from detail carving to roughing. it is an amazing difference from all the other carving tools: very little noise, very little hand vibration, a lot of torque, very easy to control handpiece without a 'death grip', my compressor isn't cycling constantly and my neighbors aren't being disturbed.

unfortunately, i wish i'd made the decision to buy it years ago instead of investing so much money (and wear on my hands) in other equipment that wasn't much of an improvement. guess that's the biggest lesson i learned.

[AlainTernet]

Thanks for your comments !

cneber said:

some things to consider: very little torque, my compressor cycles often, and i've caused premature bearing wear (and the bearings are ~120) from over-using or pushing its limits.

How many time you can work with your compressor tank (25 gallons?) without cycles often. 15 minutes ? 30 minutes ?

Janel said:

The NSK allows more control so that roughing out can be done more completely but I do not use it for detail work.

Why do you dont use your micromotor for detail work ? It is because your working practice or because this kind of
tool do not have enought ability to making details ? In my case, I look for a tool specially to making more detailled work
than my Foredom flexshaft was able to do...

Thanks !

P.S. I just seen that I have make some faults in my post title, how can I correct them?

[AlainTernet]

This is the result of my search about micromotors (with my 500$ max budget)
NSK seem to make good micromotors, but I do not find anything to fit my budget (any suggestions?)
In the other end, Marathon make a lot of cheap models, probaly too cheap...
At this time, the foredom model seem to be interesting and normally I trust the foredom brand.
Anyone have other models to add to my list (or other good place to buy?)



Foredom K.1070 Micromotor Kit, Rotary
up to 38,000 rpm with variable speed foot control
$395.00
http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea/Produc...0837=micromotor



Ram Pro 500 Micromotor Kit
35,000 rpm with variable speed foot control
$405.00
http://www.ottofrei.com/store/product.php?...page=1#DetImage



RAMPOWER 45
0-45,000 RPM with a variable foot pedal
$369.00
http://www.harrisdiscount.com/products.php...d=23&id=863



Mastercarver Micro Pro
50,000 rpm wit variable foot switch
$425
http://www.nutmegwoodworking.ca/products/m...er/793000_F.jpg



MARATHON N-1
2,000 - 45,000 RPM
$359.00
http://www.harrisdiscount.com/products.php...=23&id=1191



Marathon N7R 45,000rpm Micromotor
45,000rpm wit foot control/pedal
$375.00
http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea/Produc...0837=micromotor



Marathon N8 Handpiece Micromotor 45k unit
0 to 45 000 RPM with on-off pedal switch
$229
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ELECTRIC-Dental-Lab-N8-...8#ht_4721wt_824




35K rpm MARATHON Micro Motor Handpiece pedal control US
0 to 35 000 RPM with on-off pedal switch
$189
http://cgi.ebay.ca/35K-rpm-MARATHON-Micro-...e#ht_5696wt_824

[Janel]

Hello Alain,

Why not use the power tool for details? Perhaps as you said, it is my working practice to do so. It is my belief and experience that shows me that hand tools for detail work give the results that I search for with each piece. I don't believe that there are tools that will accomplish what I am after. With the NSK I am able to get closer to the point where I switch to the hand tools, but I will hope to never reach the point where the power tool has taken away too much material too quickly as I remove the unnecessary material. The tool works so quickly. With a complex piece there are so many elements to envisage that the smallest unmeant movement close to the stopping point could destroy the goal for the piece.

I use tools for undercutting quite a bit, to separate one part from another for a more naturalistic appearance, there is not a tool for that. A smooth surface must be smooth and not undulating from the shape of the power bit. There are places where a hand tool will not bite, then I will take a tiny burr or bit and poke into that place to give the hand tool a place to catch and do its work. There are other examples, but not quickly to mind to write about. If you go to my web site and look at surfaces and where the design parts come together, you might have a better understanding about what I described.

The NSK has a major role with each piece, but the finishing work is for the hand tools. As I said before, the tool allows me to remove more material than the old Dremel flexshaft, because it is much easier to control, so I do get closer in to the point where hand tool work begins.

I may use a small series of sanding disks or buffing pads or cotton wheels towards the end with the NSK on very slow speed. The sanding disks are for broad open surfaces and are not for the detailed work surfaces. The disks are difficult to control around the detail work. Hand tools can be controlled much more carefully. Sorry, I have gone on and on, but it is about how I work, or my working practice.

(About the title, send me an email or PM and I will change the title as you wish me to.)

Janel

"Why do you dont use your micromotor for detail work ? It is because your working practice or because this kind of
tool do not have enought ability to making details ? In my case, I look for a tool specially to making more detailled work
than my Foredom flexshaft was able to do...

Thanks !

P.S. I just seen that I have make some faults in my post title, how can I correct them? "

[cneber]

AlainTernet, on Dec 20 2009, 08:36 PM, said:

Thanks for your comments !

How many time you can work with your compressor tank (25 gallons?) without cycles often. 15 minutes ? 30 minutes ?

5hp 80gallon single phase I/R compressor --- cycling ~6 minutes with continue NSK Presto use


Thanks !

P.S. I just seen that I have make some faults in my post title, how can I correct them?

[cneber]

early december there was an NSK z500 on ebay that sold for a little above $500.00 usd -- so deals are possible if you keep searching.

check out Janel's video on how she uses her tools.

http://www.thecarvingpath.net/forum/index....&#entry7967

[AlainTernet]

Quote

cycling ~6 minutes with continue NSK Presto use

Only 6 minutes !!! Isn't it a joke?
I think that I will have to focus my choice on micromotors instead…
I cannot allow myself to make work my noisy compressor all the time, my family will kill me !

[AlainTernet]

I look at various choices that are offered to me and I have a other solution to be considered: Waiting 5-6 month again, to find more money and to to convince my wife to the concept: "Buying expensive tools is more economic on the long run than buying many cheapest one". Paying 1000$ for this kind of tool is a idea difficult to sell when you have 2 smalls babys... I wait for your advice about all the models I listed previously and on other models more expensive below (is that worth really the price? It is rather expensive!)



NSK MIO Coreless Standard Micromotor System
With a speed range of 3,000 ~ 35,000 rpm and powerful torque throughout the entire range
$799.95
http://www.avtecdental.com/cart.php?m=prod...etail&p=443



NSK VOLVERE Vmax Standard Micromotor System
• Speed range of 1,000 ~ 35,000 min-1
• Powerful torque, high efficiency coreless micromotor
• Optimal control by microprocessor
• Auto cruise function
$879.95
http://www.avtecdental.com/cart.php?m=prod...etail&p=441



NSK Electer Emax Micromotor Standard Set
1,000~35,000 rpm
A powerful DC micromotor directly in the handpiece provides surprising torque
and vibration-free rotation. This NSK system features gradual starting circuitry,
quick stop mechanisms, and feedback circuitry that maintains constant speeds even under load.
Optional - foot speed control (EG11404)
$900
http://www.artcotools.com/nsk-electer-emax...1-pr-16713.html



NSK Ultimate Z 500D Bench Top Tower System
1,000 ~ 50,000 min-1
● Optimal control by microprocessor
● Auto cruise function
● Self diagnosis function
$1,358.00
http://www.handpiece....com/z500d.html



Foredom Micro Motor Kit 1050
Brushless design offers high torque throughout the entire speed range of 1,000-50,000 rpm.
Kit includes control box with digital display, handpiece with 2.35mm (3/32") collet, variable
speed foot pedal, handpiece cradle, and extra fuse. Brushes never need changing.
$999
http://www.chippingaway.com/woodcarving/Fo...r-HighSpeed.htm

[Janel]

Remember to include in this purchase a dust collection unit. This is very important. There are topics that show the various ways members have accommodated the dust and debris factor. Can someone find those threads and post links to them?

Great research Alain! You have me yearning for more machinery, though I will stick with what I have for now. I hope that you will get the input you need to help you focus on what to purchase.

Is there any way you could put some sound insulation on the ceiling of your work area, to make your space quieter and for the family above?

Janel

[RUSS]

Hello Alain............just a quick reply from myself...

I purchased a Flexi-drive when I first started carving, It was made by axminster and was a lot cheaper than the Foredom one...........I still have it now and is working just fine. I did though replace the handpiece with a quick release model....Far more robust and the quality so much better..............

I then purcahsed the Marathon Micro-motor you posted a picture of, the one with the slimmer handpiece...This is the quick release type too................. I know this may not be an issue for some people but I wanted to spend more time carving than changing different burrs with spanners..........Might be worth thinking about.

I now use the Flexidrive for heavy roughing out and the Marathon for the detailed work, It really is a superb micromoter for the money..

Always difficult to choose.....good luck

Russ

[cneber]

Janel, on Dec 21 2009, 09:36 PM, said:

Remember to include in this purchase a dust collection unit. This is very important. There are topics that show the various ways members have accommodated the dust and debris factor. Can someone find those threads and post links to them?

Janel

Links:

http://www.thecarvingpath.net/forum/index....dust+collection
http://www.thecarvingpath.net/forum/index....=dust+collector

[cneber]

AlainTernet, on Dec 21 2009, 07:32 PM, said:

yhst_556..._3588630.jpeg
NSK Ultimate Z 500D Bench Top Tower System
1,000 ~ 50,000 min-1
● Optimal control by microprocessor
● Auto cruise function
● Self diagnosis function
$1,358.00
http://www.handpiece....com/z500d.html

additional resource:
http://www.canyonstatedentalsupply.com/ele..._handpieces.htm

[AlainTernet]

Thanks all for your advice and comments !
Finally, I make a choice, maybe not the best choice overall but a
good choice for ma wallet...

I bought the Foredom K.1070 Micromotor. I find it
with good rebate for boxing day, good price and bought locally without
ordering in usa (more expensive for me). The NSK seem be the way to go
for serrious (and rich) user, but I think the model will be ok for me to make
what I want.




I chose a micromotor for the lowest noise, the more torque
and the because the air consummation of air turbine afraid me...
(and I hate the compressor heavy noise...)

For those that may be interested, here's my impression now:

- Wow ! It run so smooth ! Nothing to do with my two flexshaft Foredom !
No vibration at all.

- I was a little surprised by the weight. I was expecting something lighter
but it is not so bad, it's pretty well balanced and gives a certain stability.
For cons, I really liked the light weight of an air turbine, it must be less tiring in the long run!

- The quickchange collet is very quick and useful ! Just turn the 1/4 the ring on the handle to
close or open the collet. (a lot faster than the jacob chuck of my
foredom flexshaft). This model come with a 3/32 collet. I replaced it by a 1/8 collet and bought
a 3/32 and a 1/16 collet adapter. This way I can change any 1/16 - 3/32 - 1/8 in a second....
Very interesting !

- The foot control is precise and useful but the tabletop control seem to be interesting for
some operation. I think I will use Both methods.

- After one hour of running the at full speed the handpiece become little hot but
nothing disturbing (not very hot, more like warm). It's probably normal... ?

And voila! Now it only remains for me to tame the beast!

Alain

[cneber]

AlainTernet, on Jan 5 2010, 08:00 PM, said:

Thanks all for your advice and comments !
Finally, I make a choice, maybe not the best choice overall but a
good choice for ma wallet...

I bought the Foredom K.1070 Micromotor.

congratulations ... sounds as if this is the perfect choice for you!!!!

now, GET TO WORK!!!!!!

[jonbouy]

Found this site www.graphictransfer.net for air turbines.

Regards
John