[Janel]

The need for this discussion has blossomed in a thread begun by Sergio who has been working on dead leaves. The post following this one was moved from that topic to here, to discontinue the diversion on Sergio's topic.

Lets us examine what every member understands about critique, criticism, constructive criticism, or the need for not just offering accolades whether deserved or not in each person's opinions.

I wish to point out that each carver on the forum is at one's own unique level of development, and needs our comments differentiated according to their growing abilities. Pointing out the failures of the forum members for a giving uniformly positive cheer for a successful step is not helpful. Let us try to give the members some tools to work with so that commentary following the posting of new works will be positive and not destructive, or benign in their compliments.

Janel

[Janel]

I have moved the content of member "Claire" to this forum topic to seed the discussion begun on Sergio's 'dead leaves' topic. I was not able to figure out how to actually move her whole post with her name and links to her PM access, so have copied and pasted just the content here.

Janel

Quote

(Janel @ Feb 9 2010, 01:49 PM) *
Other members,

It really is not necessary to point out the shortcomings of the membership who are trying to encourage a carver who is improving as he carves, and is daring to put his work out for us to see. Encouragement goes a long way when aimed at someone who is showing signs of growth with each piece, as does constructive criticism. Pointing out the failures of everyone else is not constructive in this process. Let us please focus on the carver and offer suggestions and incite from our own experiences that may actually help the carver to grow. Is that not our ultimate goal here on the forum
Janel

P.S. I agree with Jim about a separate thread on the subject of critique.

With respect Janel, I disagree. Telling a carver wishing to improve their work that something is "perfect" when it clearly isn't (especially when that critique is coming from a established carver) does NOT encourage, it merely misinforms and ultimately hampers the carvers potential development.
Pointing this out as previous posters and myself have done is not only constructive but an absolute necessity if the the goal of this forum is in fact (?) to help a carver grow.


Claire

[fkvesic]

Both encouragement and critique are important to the growth of any artist, as any art student knows from their own training days. There are ways to give a critique. Probably the best way is to involve asking questions of the person who has put up the piece of work. That, together with pointing out what jars in the opinion of the critique-giver and maybe some helpful suggestions, may well start off further thought processes for the artist.

Of course, the exercise means that tact needs to be employed, but sometimes a straight comment will get through much quicker. It's difficult to offer the latter on a talkboard because the recipient misses the tones of voice and inflections which may accompany them in real life and may then misjudge them as aggressive, but that's not to say it shoudn't occasionally be undertaken.

What is not helpful is encouragement only: nobody progresses far if that's the only response to posting a piece.

[sergio]

Hi all. I think that critic is necessary to grow. Leon tell me a good critic , and in my mind i feel what he says. Since the begining, i know that this leaf is not like the first, it's rigid. The kind words are very sympathics, it help us to feel good. But when an other carver takes time to see what you do, compares your different works, and tell you his feeling, i think that it is a compliment. If you don't want critic, you don't show what you do ! And if sometime the critic is clumsy , don't worry and try to understand what want to say your speaker. I tell that because i think that sometimes i'm clumsy , i don't speak very well english and it's hard to say exactly what i think.

[Leon]

Seems I did it again.
(Sergio your english is good enough, you have no idea how long it takes me to write a reply!)

What did I do?
It's true, I was wondering why experienced carvers did not mention or did not see what was wrong (or less good) with his latest carving.
I hesitated a long time to tell him, but wanted to help him. Perhaps I should not have said the 'nice' sentence, but yes, I was upset by the lack of help for Sergio. He deserved a good advice, he took it well. So yes, maybe you all should be a little ashamed!
(If you don't want to help, why replying?) No harm done to Sergio, don't know about egos.

Tell me not to criticize and I will shut up, that's a promise.

Leon

[Don Barnhill]

Criticism done in the right way can facilitate growth. But don't just say I don't like your work, explain why and what you think should be done to correct the problem.

Unless you just criticize to be mean I think it will help us to be truthful.

[Woodworm]

fkvesi -- wrote ---

{Of course, the exercise means that tact needs to be employed, but sometimes a straight comment will get through much quicker. It's difficult to offer the latter on a talkboard because the recipient misses the tones of voice and inflections which may accompany them in real life and may then misjudge them as aggressive, but that's not to say it shoudn't occasionally be undertaken.
What is not helpful is encouragement only: nobody progresses far if that's the only response to posting a piece. }

Very well said.

I do think that we live in an oversensitive world these days.
We tend to worry too much that we may offend another.
These very words ---
{It's difficult to offer the latter on a talkboard because the recipient misses the tones of voice and inflections which may accompany them in real life and may then misjudge them as aggressive, but that's not to say it shoudn't occasionally be undertaken. } --- should be well considered here.

Also, let us keep in mind the general "whole" of this forum.
As a unique a community as I have ever seen in my travels in life.
Those creating, sharing, jesting, helping caring. From all walks of life. Working through artistic problems, and language barriers.
That is something all here should be very proud of.

Oh, and there are those like me that come to drool over the marvels I see all you folks creating.

Don wrote --
{Unless you just criticize to be mean I think it will help us to be truthful. }

I do agree.

My wife criticizes me at times. I call it my ration of "Hot tongue and Cold Shoulder".
uh -- well there is always tomorrow Dear.
Did I mention there is also humour found on this forum? Oh yes - jesting.

Good topic Janel.

Bill

[Natasha]

Hello everyone!
I think the opinion of every of us is very important for a beginner.
I want to explain my positive opinion without critic.
First of all, Sergio is studying the nature, natural dry leaves, and he is elaborating his own style without imitation of style of another artist. It is very right way for a beginner who wants to have individualism in his work! His last leaf shows us that his skill is better. To discuss about design or composition is very difficult problem, we all have to think about many nuances, as (again) individualism, style, vision and etc. of artist, in order to not change his vision in way liked by another artist. Many artists - many tastes!
The second moment, Sergio's leaf is co-ordinate with the Japanese philosophy of Art, Shibui. In Wikipedia we can read so:
"Shibui or Shibumi is a Japanese word which refers to a particular
aesthetic of simple, subtle, and unobtrusive beauty.
Originating in the Muromachi period (1333-1568) as shibushi, the term
originally referred to a sour or astringent taste, such as that of an
unripe persimmon. Shibui maintains that literal meaning still, and
remains the antonym of amai, meaning 'sweet'..........
Expert singers, actors, potters, and artists of all other sorts were
often said to be shibui; their expertise caused them to do things
beautifully without making them excessive or gaudy....."
The full text is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibui
So, I don't have any critic, everything goes right in my personal understanding of this leaf!

Leon, your opinion is very important for us! It is interesting why You think so: "Your latest one is quite different, good technique but design-wise a mistake." Could You please make your thought clearer,
where is a mistake? It would be very helpful if You, Leon, show us your own work that might be a parallel example, as instruction how to decide the design task in a sculpture (leaf)!

Clair, it is good to see You in this very important discussion! Personally for me, it would be interesting if You share with us your knowledge in this difficult subject as dry leaves!

Sergio has a question, what dyes would be better for the dry leaves? Can anybody help? My experiments with dyes are more with mammoth tusk, I can only share just this knowledge, but I feel that
my knowledge how to stain box-wood is not enough and full, that's why I cannot give helpful advise. Let's wait the help of other artists working more with box-wood!

[Leon]

Natasha, on Feb 10 2010, 09:12 AM, said:

Leon, your opinion is very important for us! It is interesting why You think so: "Your latest one is quite different, good technique but design-wise a mistake." Could You please make your thought clearer...

????
Sergio understood me, why should experienced carvers not?


(It's good to see that wikipedia is helpful to you )

[Claire]

[Jim Kelso]

In post #6 of Sergio's Dead Leaves thread he says, "I think I must carve leaves more tortured". Seemed to me that he was on the path of self-discovery before anyone else's critique.

Also,Leon, it seems quite dangerous when we consider our opinions to be so factual that others should be ashamed if they don't hold them too.

Jim

[Alice]

hello Jim.

please do not mind me asking, but does this mean you do not agree with the arguments of leon?
it would be nice to hear about this more, would be of great value to the discussion.

regards, alice.
(i stil have not introduced me properly, i will do soon. language is difficult, as is computers!)

[Mike Ruslander]

Jim Kelso, on Feb 10 2010, 07:35 AM, said:

In post #6 of Sergio's Dead Leaves thread he says, "I think I must carve leaves more tortured". Seems like he got the inspiration looking at Kodo's work before anyone else's critique to that similar effect.

Also, it seems quite dangerous when we consider our opinions to be so factual that others should be ashamed if they don't hold them too.

Jim

When carving, perhaps we should hold ourselves true to the artistic statement that WE want to put forth. (Abilities factored in of course).

[Claire]

Jim Kelso, on Feb 10 2010, 12:35 PM, said:

In post #6 of Sergio's Dead Leaves thread he says, "I think I must carve leaves more tortured". Seems like he got the inspiration looking at Kodo's work before anyone else's critique to that similar effect.

Also, it seems quite dangerous when we consider our opinions to be so factual that others should be ashamed if they don't hold them too.

Jim

Really Jim. If you do feel the need to offer a critique on where Sergio got his inspiration from, I think you should just say it straight up yourself rather than suggesting that somebody else might say something to that effect. Sergio has clearly stated that he did look at Kodo's leaves after Tom brought them to his attention, so its seems a bit petty to now try to make a point about it yourself.

I also note that you said in the Sergio leaf thread:
"I would suggest opening a separate thread on the subject of critique in respect for Sergio's thread.
Even though otherwise stated by Phil, it does appear, because of Leon's critique, that the subsequent comments are directed toward Sergio and the tone of his thread.
Jim"

I don't understand why you are now offering new critique on Sergio's work in the thread specifically created to discuss critique.

Claire

[Jim Kelso]

Claire, on Feb 10 2010, 09:36 AM, said:

Really Jim. If you do feel the need to offer a critique on where Sergio got his inspiration from, I think you should just say it straight up yourself rather than suggesting that somebody else might say something to that effect. Sergio has clearly stated that he did look at Kodo's leaves after Tom brought them to his attention, so its seems a bit petty to now try to make a point about it yourself.

I also note that you said in the Sergio leaf thread:
"I would suggest opening a separate thread on the subject of critique in respect for Sergio's thread.
Even though otherwise stated by Phil, it does appear, because of Leon's critique, that the subsequent comments are directed toward Sergio and the tone of his thread.
Jim"

I don't understand why you are now offering new critique on Sergio's work in the thread specifically created to discuss critique.

Claire

Claire, my point really was that Sergio had made a statement about being inspired to make his leaves "more tortured", regardless of my thought about where he got it, which to me is irrelevant, other than the timing. The real point being that he expressed his inspiration early in the thread, before the subsequent comments.

I'm not offering critique of Sergio's work at all, in fact, he seems to be quite capable of teasing out what he needs quite gracefully from all of this, and where-else he may, without comment on my part.

[Jim Kelso]

Mike Ruslander, on Feb 10 2010, 09:26 AM, said:

When carving, perhaps we should hold ourselves true to the artistic statement that WE want to put forth. (Abilities factored in of course).

Mike, I couldn't agree more. If I understand you correctly, it's irrelevant to me where inspiration comes from, as long as it's coming.

Jim

[Leon]

But this topic is about to criticize or not, not about inspirations.

[Janel]

Thank you all for launching into this topic.

The topic again is: Critique, Lets discuss the concept here

The trail has led away from discussing the concept of critique, so please move forward and provide insight into the skills of offering critique to peers and students.

For instance, from the archives about three years ago:
Critique Guidelines, From various sources

Janel

[Jim Kelso]

Leon, on Feb 10 2010, 11:00 AM, said:

But this topic is about to criticize or not, not about inspirations.

Sorry if I skewed the premise of the thread, but I think that this goes to the heart of it. The question to me Leon, seems not only whether to criticize or not, it is, more importantly, how to go about it. Certainly technical mistakes can be corrected rather forthrightly. Critique in matters of aesthetics and taste I would say takes a great deal of sensitivity and understanding of someone personally, and I've come to think that it's nearly impossible on an internet forum. This is why I almost never make more than an encouraging remark unless it's explicitly asked for, not, as has been suggested, for reasons of confusing or discouraging others, and securing my own position. (a rather rude assumption without any evidence)

Is critique meant to correct or inspire? in one of my dictionaries the verb inspire is defined as: "fill (someone) with the urge or ability to do or feel something, esp. to do something creative." My own bias if I give a critique would be to inspire rather than correct, especially in the realms of taste and aesthetics that are almost entirely subjective. Such inspiration is to me the object of criticism but I can understand if others have a different view.

In giving a critique I think that what's most important is not what you say but what the other will hear.

Jim

[Claire]

Jim Kelso, on Feb 10 2010, 06:53 PM, said:

In giving a critique I think that what's most important is not what you say but what the other will hear.

Quite, unfortunately neither Janel, Natasha or yourself seem to be very up to date on current thinking on this matter. I suggest you start with Carol Dweck, a professor of developmental psychology at Stanford University and author of "Mindset: The New Psychology of Success.