[Audie B.]

Does anyone make their own carving points for stone? Say wood loaded with either diamond paste (various grits on different points) or epoxy loaded with diamond grit? Need to cut and polish fine detail in different hardness of stone.

Thought I 'd ask here on this site...not a lot out there. Am using a dremel flex shaft attached to a foot pedal. Found a cute little battery operated thing at Harbor Freight, takes a 1/16 shaft and found some carving points on a lapidary site but that is just for the initial carving and not for polishing...the Novas points are too large.

Audie

[nz yank]

Audie B., on Jun 6 2010, 05:12 PM, said:

Does anyone make their own carving points for stone? Say wood loaded with either diamond paste (various grits on different points) or epoxy loaded with diamond grit? Need to cut and polish fine detail in different hardness of stone.

Thought I 'd ask here on this site...not a lot out there. Am using a dremel flex shaft attached to a foot pedal. Found a cute little battery operated thing at Harbor Freight, takes a 1/16 shaft and found some carving points on a lapidary site but that is just for the initial carving and not for polishing...the Novas points are too large.

Audie

Hi Audie

never heard of anyone making there own diamond burrs you can get them all over and cheap. where do you live? we have a supplyer here in nz that cares all shapes and sizes he get them from a company called hongia in taiwan good price and good burrs I have not bought direct from hongia my self ( I sould with what i go through lol ) just watch prices from other places I'v seen burrs going for $50.00 ( 1 and 2 mm ) thats a rip off you should not have to pay more than 2 to 3 dollars each. there are some real cheap ones out there that dont last or cut worth a dam if you order any from diffrent places just get very small amount till you get to test them for quality. if you can buy from Hongia there good burrs. as far as dreamel try to get yourself a rotery flex shaft with up to 50 thousand rpms high speed helps. here hongia website http://www.hongia.co...dental_burs.htm get on face book look me up Terry urban nelson new zealand ill hook you up with people all over the world that carve stone and bone. lots good people out there to help you. when you send freind reqest sen note with it you are from carving path cheers terry

[Debbie K]

Audie:

Two diffent issues: Carving and Polishing

Carving/Shaping

Rough shaping after sawing: I use stones, such as the "Heatless Mizzy". You can stack them to do bigger grinding, and when they wear down, you can use the smaller ones for more detail. The commercially available diamond points can't be beat for roughing out, the sintered points will last alot longer and if you can find the cheap ones (from China) in the variety of grits you will save yourself alot of polishing time. The limited line that Dremel offers are very durable, but not much of a variety in shapes and only coarse grit.

You can accomplish alot using whetstones by hand which can be cut into a variety of shapes and sizes.

Polishing

I use anything that works, and some things work on some stones that won't on others. I most commonly use diamond powder and oil (not paste, as it often has pigment in it to differentiate the grit size and can stain softer stones) and either small wood dowels or brass rod which can be shaped with a file. I have also had success with pumice powder and rottenstone powder and oil.

My diamond powder was part of a group bulk order from Russia, look around on the internet for the best prices. Keep all tools strictly separate, do not cross-contaminate the grits. You will need a complete set of bits (wood, brass, whatever) for each grit size.

Softer stones like turquiose, lapis, labradorite, etc., can often be polished with jeweler's rubber polishing points. Any jeweler supplier carries these, and they can be incredibly useful.

I was a woodcarver before I was a stonecarver, so I had some sandpaper rotary points which can be used, but they raise alot of dust and I don't recommend it without using a good particle mask and then wiping all the dust up with a damp towel. Stone carvers and lapidary artists often develop scilicosis, an occupation hazard. That's why I like the oil and diamond powder, it keeps the dust down.

Some carvers make their own points out of micardia or acrylic, which is then charged with oil and diamond. I have had no luck using epoxy and diamond powder, the epoxy seems to break off in hunks.

Good luck!

Debbie K

[DanM]

The points you are looking for are everywhere. Google phenolic or phenol carving points. Usually I get them from Alpha Supply,but it looks like they are preparing a new online catalog.

Alpha Supply

Diamond Pacific also has everything you would ever want for carving and most anything related to gemstones.

Diamond Pacific page 81

[Audie B.]

nz yank, on Jun 6 2010, 02:30 AM, said:

Hi Audie

never heard of anyone making there own diamond burrs you can get them all over and cheap. where do you live? we have a supplyer here in nz that cares all shapes and sizes he get them from a company called hongia in taiwan good price and good burrs I have not bought direct from hongia my self ( I sould with what i go through lol ) just watch prices from other places I'v seen burrs going for $50.00 ( 1 and 2 mm ) thats a rip off you should not have to pay more than 2 to 3 dollars each. there are some real cheap ones out there that dont last or cut worth a dam if you order any from diffrent places just get very small amount till you get to test them for quality. if you can buy from Hongia there good burrs. as far as dreamel try to get yourself a rotery flex shaft with up to 50 thousand rpms high speed helps. here hongia website http://www.hongia.co...dental_burs.htm get on face book look me up Terry urban nelson new zealand ill hook you up with people all over the world that carve stone and bone. lots good people out there to help you. when you send freind reqest sen note with it you are from carving path cheers terry

[Audie B.]

[quote name='Debbie K' date='Jun 6 2010, 12:15 PM' post='18884']
Audie:

Two diffent issues: Carving and Polishing

Carving/Shaping

Rough shaping after sawing: I use stones, such as the "Heatless Mizzy". You can stack them to do bigger grinding, and when they wear down, you can use the smaller ones for more detail. The commercially available diamond points can't be beat for roughing out, the sintered points will last alot longer and if you can find the cheap ones (from China) in the variety of grits you will save yourself alot of polishing time. The limited line that Dremel offers are very durable, but not much of a variety in shapes and only coarse grit.

You can accomplish alot using whetstones by hand which can be cut into a variety of shapes and sizes.

Polishing

I use anything that works, and some things work on some stones that won't on others. I most commonly use diamond powder and oil (not paste, as it often has pigment in it to differentiate the grit size and can stain softer stones) and either small wood dowels or brass rod which can be shaped with a file. I have also had success with pumice powder and rottenstone powder and oil.

My diamond powder was part of a group bulk order from Russia, look around on the internet for the best prices. Keep all tools strictly separate, do not cross-contaminate the grits. You will need a complete set of bits (wood, brass, whatever) for each grit size.

Softer stones like turquiose, lapis, labradorite, etc., can often be polished with jeweler's rubber polishing points. Any jeweler supplier carries these, and they can be incredibly useful.

I was a woodcarver before I was a stonecarver, so I had some sandpaper rotary points which can be used, but they raise alot of dust and I don't recommend it without using a good particle mask and then wiping all the dust up with a damp towel. Stone carvers and lapidary artists often develop scilicosis, an occupation hazard. That's why I like the oil and diamond powder, it keeps the dust down.

Some carvers make their own points out of micardia or acrylic, which is then charged with oil and diamond. I have had no luck using epoxy and diamond powder, the epoxy seems to break off in hunks.

Good luck!

Debbie K
[/quote


Thank you Debbie and all...I don't do face book but would love to connect with stone carvers (small items) as I am carving opals.

What is micardia?

I have a full compliment of diamond pastes (found out about the colors on a soft stone) and powders. Have spent a few years cabbing on a slant lap and a Genie so know that end of the spectrum. Carving seemed more of a challenge, especially with opals and finding the play of color lines, sneaking up on the color, ect.

I purchased the nova diamond carving cones from Diamond Pacific but never got to use them as they were lost while returning from a trip. Have you used them?

Am trying to buy these http://www.gemcuts.com.au/prod1043.htm but can't seem to get a consistent reply from the dealers. They had promised me not to charge the international shipping.

Think I am going to re order the Nova mini's. Boy, they are expensive but seem to do the job for others...will let you know.

Do you use a dremel?

Audie

[Debbie K]

Audie:

What part of the world are you in? Are you anywhere near a town that has a jeweler's tool and supply store? You can find many things that I'm showing you links to there.

This is the grinding stone that doesn't overheat your stone as much:
http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea/Search...eatless%20mizzy

All of the following are rubberized abrasive polishers:

http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea/Produc...=Polishing+Pins

http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea/Search...itan%20polisher

http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea/Search...15905984=cratex

Cheap diamond bits and files:

http://www.sciplus.com/search.cfm?utm_sour...amp;btnHand.y=0

Cheap rotary tool:

http://www.sciplus.com/search.cfm?utm_sour...amp;btnHand.y=5

I add the last one because you will burn up your Dremel using the foot pedal (I've gone through 2). Yes, I use a Dremel. But recently I have switched over a Grobet with a foot pedal. It's a cheaper version of a Foredom, but most of the parts interchange. I used to think that I really needed the extra rpm's, and was dying to get one of the dental-type high speed tools, but realized that all the stuff that I'm working on is so small that I don't really need one.

I looked for nova carving cones on Diamond Pacific's site and couldn't locate them in the catalog, so I don't know if I've used anything like them. The bits that you provided the link for look similiar to the Titan and Cratex bits that I sent you the link to, so they ought to work fine.

Micardia is a phenolic (sp?) resin impregnated linen or cotton fabric that is very hard, but can be machined. They used to use thin sheets of it for primitve circuit boards. I have no idea where one can get it now, years ago it was available at Radio Shack.

Since you are a cabber I don't have to warn you about opal. Another option to the expensive minis are glass grinders. I used to do all my roughing out after sawing with one, and it worked fine. I just set the grinding wheel up off the flat and moved my wet sponge up to meet it.

In case you're interested, this is what I do http://picasaweb.goo...ahkirkpatrick56

Debbie K

[Audie B.]

Debbie K, on Jun 7 2010, 09:38 AM, said:

Audie:

What part of the world are you in? Are you anywhere near a town that has a jeweler's tool and supply store? You can find many things that I'm showing you links to there.

This is the grinding stone that doesn't overheat your stone as much:
http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea/Search...eatless%20mizzy

All of the following are rubberized abrasive polishers:

http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea/Produc...=Polishing+Pins

http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea/Search...itan%20polisher

http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea/Search...15905984=cratex

Cheap diamond bits and files:

http://www.sciplus.com/search.cfm?utm_sour...amp;btnHand.y=0

Cheap rotary tool:

http://www.sciplus.com/search.cfm?utm_sour...amp;btnHand.y=5

I add the last one because you will burn up your Dremel using the foot pedal (I've gone through 2). Yes, I use a Dremel. But recently I have switched over a Grobet with a foot pedal. It's a cheaper version of a Foredom, but most of the parts interchange. I used to think that I really needed the extra rpm's, and was dying to get one of the dental-type high speed tools, but realized that all the stuff that I'm working on is so small that I don't really need one.

I looked for nova carving cones on Diamond Pacific's site and couldn't locate them in the catalog, so I don't know if I've used anything like them. The bits that you provided the link for look similiar to the Titan and Cratex bits that I sent you the link to, so they ought to work fine.

Micardia is a phenolic (sp?) resin impregnated linen or cotton fabric that is very hard, but can be machined. They used to use thin sheets of it for primitve circuit boards. I have no idea where one can get it now, years ago it was available at Radio Shack.

Since you are a cabber I don't have to warn you about opal. Another option to the expensive minis are glass grinders. I used to do all my roughing out after sawing with one, and it worked fine. I just set the grinding wheel up off the flat and moved my wet sponge up to meet it.

In case you're interested, this is what I do http://picasaweb.goo...ahkirkpatrick56

Debbie K

Great stuff Debbie....mine is more mundane: http://community.web.../user/audieanne that is why I am getting into carving opals. Your turquoise is talking to me,,,nin free form and my turquoise is just setting there gathering dust,

I just ordered the nova mini carving points....the bullets full compliment of grits. http://www.diamondpa...talogfromd.html This is the whole catalog you have to download...they are on page 78 (have heard good things about them). I also ordered some soft dremel bristle brushes for diamond paste just for the heck of it. Not sure what will work, yet. Need to look into the mizzy's.

Do you prefer zam or fabuluster...have had opinions either way.

Never thought of the glass grinder, I have one I use to groove a cab for wire wrap and of course it came with the diamond drum (probably too big for what I want).

Ordered some cheap bits from widget supply, love that site.

I have a foredom knock off, too...but I like the key-less chuck on the dremel...will deal with motor burn up when the time comes (have a cheap one that came with something else I wanted)...have been up to my ears in cabbing students and am getting ready to teach at William Holland's Federation Week, next week.

A club member gave me a jewelry lathe but it is antique and he is going to have to help me get it going...actually I think it is for watches.

Thanks for the help...all help is appreciated.

Audie

[Debbie K]

Audie:

I liked the keyless chuck on the Dremel, too, until it got so fouled with stone powder that it got almost impossible to use. The trouble with all the cheap (which is the only thing I use) rotary tools is the difficulty in cleaning them. They're practically sealed systems. Make sure to clean and lube the shaft about every 40 hrs of use.

I've only used Zam, so can't reply to relative merits. Once used it on a soft stone and put it in ammonia to get rid of the residue and came back 15 minutes or so later to find my stone was being eaten away. So, be careful.

Good luck and have fun, let me know how the new points and bits work out.

Debbie K

[Audie B.]

Debbie K, on Jun 8 2010, 09:16 AM, said:

Audie:

I liked the keyless chuck on the Dremel, too, until it got so fouled with stone powder that it got almost impossible to use. The trouble with all the cheap (which is the only thing I use) rotary tools is the difficulty in cleaning them. They're practically sealed systems. Make sure to clean and lube the shaft about every 40 hrs of use.

I've only used Zam, so can't reply to relative merits. Once used it on a soft stone and put it in ammonia to get rid of the residue and came back 15 minutes or so later to find my stone was being eaten away. So, be careful.

Good luck and have fun, let me know how the new points and bits work out.

Debbie K

[Audie B.]

Debbie K, on Jun 8 2010, 09:16 AM, said:

Audie:

I liked the keyless chuck on the Dremel, too, until it got so fouled with stone powder that it got almost impossible to use. The trouble with all the cheap (which is the only thing I use) rotary tools is the difficulty in cleaning them. They're practically sealed systems. Make sure to clean and lube the shaft about every 40 hrs of use.

I've only used Zam, so can't reply to relative merits. Once used it on a soft stone and put it in ammonia to get rid of the residue and came back 15 minutes or so later to find my stone was being eaten away. So, be careful.

Good luck and have fun, let me know how the new points and bits work out.

Debbie K

My friend stopped by and showed me how to use the watchmakers lathe...we turned the piece that holds the chuck around to point to the left and it looks as if it will work just fine. Is different than a rotary tool in that it can be cleaned. It has a motor attached to a band that drives the points, much like a wooden spool apparatus. There are different grooves in which to put the belt to increase or decrease speed, it is on the slowest right now. The good thing is that both hands are free.

The points and bits will probably arrive next week while I am gone but will report back. Need to get ready for the class next week, cut slabs, make hand outs, ect.

Audie

[Tim Blades]

Hi,

came to this thread a bit late, there is a good book 'The American Lapidary' by Henry Hunt. He goes into a lot of detail on polishing with wood points and wheels,also copper tools , what is the best wood and mixes for diamond. Also making your own equipment.

There is a lot on design that probably won't apply but I don't know of any more comprehensive info except for his first book.

I Googled it and it is still available for about $25 .

regards Tim.

[dante lopez]

hi ,I came across the same problem ,in every carving I make ,,like debbie say wherever that work for you that's it ,to me was neopre ruber , I buy the sheet of neopre cut one circular or werever shape I need and filed ,first glued on e shaft or old beat whit super glue , and use diamond dust ,ones it have the shape you need put the dust on the ruber somthing like when you cook e fry fhis whit bretdyou know?? then you put the diamond dust ,then super glue to hold them tougether , let them dry for 5 minuts and woooo super polisher , but after the diamond burs I use green points from e dentis suply,or buy e tungsten carbide grinding whell that you can cut in small pieces whit your diamond discwhit watter ,all this tecnicks you have to grindem douwn to the sahpe you need , in my expirence fast in to good in many stones so I like more slow and watter , if pocible to use oil is great it gives a great finishing smooth but YOU HAVE TO HAVE A DUST MASK,one guy that I teach never lisent to me and in less then 5 years he develop silicatosis in the longs I ben doing this for 20 years and nothing clean like e baby whell ,the green stones are for pre polishing, then use the diamond dust ,one tip I paint whit e marker all the piece before I polish to see where it need to be polish if you see any black marck from the marker that spot need to polish egaing, hope this help

[Audie B.]

Tim Blades, on Jun 28 2010, 09:03 AM, said:

Hi,

came to this thread a bit late, there is a good book 'The American Lapidary' by Henry Hunt. He goes into a lot of detail on polishing with wood points and wheels,also copper tools , what is the best wood and mixes for diamond. Also making your own equipment.

There is a lot on design that probably won't apply but I don't know of any more comprehensive info except for his first book.

I Googled it and it is still available for about $25 .

regards Tim.

Tim,

I just ordered the book from Color Wright, same price as you quoted. I had a computer meltdown and purchased a notebook, transferring data and loosing bookmarks isn't fun...that is why there has been silence from this end. Anyway, I want to thank everyone for their excellent answers and I fully intend to master this process...grrrr:)

Thanks again,

Audie PS some photos of my carved Welo opal

[kenneth neaves]

audie,very nice opals,i have not cut but a few of the wello opals.it is nice material and like i said i have not cut enough of them to advise you.in any opal the only way i have been able to polish in the little nooks and crannies like you have on yours is with a wood toothpick and diamond paste.looks to me like you are getting a fine polish on them.best regards,kenneth neaves

[Debbie K]

Audie:

Your opals look great! I envy you the watchmaker's lathe; it's so useful in so many ways. Keep up the good work!

Dante:

Silicosis from polishing with oil and diamond? Tell me it isn't so. I didn't know I needed to wear a mask with the oil. Thanks for warning us all. Regarding the marker on stones; don't try it on softer stones and some jades. I've had the marker ink absorb into the stone. Great tip about the neopreme and diamond and super glue, thank you.

I, like Ken, use toothpicks and oil and diamond powder all time to polish itty-bitty hard to polish places. Also straight pins and needles (not the cheap ones).

Debbie K

[dante lopez]

jajajjajajajaaj no debbie whit oil is no problem sorry I did not explain my self clear , if do it whit no watter yes , you get that , but whit oil is great no problem , but always is good to have proteccion I have e bigg fan on e side and my masck just in case , my aprentice never use the masck so in 5 years thats wat hapened to hem ,keep the good work ,my dear friend audie I polish opals to there is e polishing weels from stuller ,they special for polishing opals ,tanzanite,emerals, and it works great ,when hard to reach ares use the neoprhene whit the diamond dust and you bee sorprice allso you can use dentist silicon weells , the only tip for opals " NEVER GO FAST " and " NEVER GET IT HOT " if you keep that you never going to have problems , hope this helps you in some way cheers

[Audie B.]

I am workshop general foreman for our rock club and refurbish the Nova wheels with 220 epoxy and diamond grit at the appropriate grit size...although not being able to get 280, I have had to resort to 260. They cut better than new. I can see where this would work on toothpicks and the such. I haven't tried the oil trick and can't on the Aussie opals. Have been told oil turns the opal yellow? I could sacrifice a Welo and see what happens. Maybe there isn't enough lubrication and that is where the uneveness of polish is coming into play.

Never thought of needles and straight pins...explain...?

Off to the East Coast tomorrow for a few days.

Thanks for all of the convo, peeps.

Audie

Debbie K, on Oct 12 2010, 06:27 PM, said:

Audie:

Your opals look great! I envy you the watchmaker's lathe; it's so useful in so many ways. Keep up the good work!

Dante:

Silicosis from polishing with oil and diamond? Tell me it isn't so. I didn't know I needed to wear a mask with the oil. Thanks for warning us all. Regarding the marker on stones; don't try it on softer stones and some jades. I've had the marker ink absorb into the stone. Great tip about the neopreme and diamond and super glue, thank you.

I, like Ken, use toothpicks and oil and diamond powder all time to polish itty-bitty hard to polish places. Also straight pins and needles (not the cheap ones).

Debbie K

[Debbie K]

Audie:

I carved an opal, first with diamond burs and water, and then did the detail work with oil and diamond and toothpicks. I used some bur oil for Rio Grande and I didn't notice any yellowing, and as it was a whiteish opal, I think I would of. Folks used to say put mineral oil on opals to rehydrate them, I hadn't heard that yellowing was a problem.

Audie, look at the photos of my work I posted recently in "New Work". All three of them have faces. In order to do eyelids, mouth lines, nostrils, and in the male head, moustache, beard and hair, I have to have very small tools. All of the commercial burs and even the dental burs are way to big. I use the pin collet for the dremel and use dress maker straight pins with diamond and oil. I use the head of the pin to do slight undercuts, and as the metal wears down the head gets smaller, enabling you to use it for even smaller areas. I also use brass escutheon pins for things a little larger. The needle is for really tiny spots.

The important thing is to get quality pins and needles. These can be found at fabric stores, not at the corner drugstore or mega-mart. The cheap pins' heads are off center and irregular.

The shop foreman at my gem and mineral society uses fumed silica to mix with the diamond powder and epoxy to redress the wheels. Than way the diamond is more evenly distributed and less has to be used to get good coverage. I made a set myself: 100, 200, 600, 1200, 3000, 8000. I have a little rock grinder with the expanding wheel and have to change them, but as I don't do a lot of cabbing it doesn't bother me too much to change them.

Your opals are beautiful. I look forward to seeing more.

Debbie K

[Audie B.]

Debbie, I am on my way out the door for a few days but wanted to answer your note. Where does one purchase fumed siluca...or i can google., later.

Ah, thank you for your info. My dentist has been kind to me about giving me drills but I, too, have a need for smaller bits, especially in the tight spots in the opals that have folded over layers, perfect for carving BUT with the right tools. I will check your website later.

Thank you sooo much,

Audie

Debbie K, on Oct 13 2010, 09:48 AM, said:

Audie:

I carved an opal, first with diamond burs and water, and then did the detail work with oil and diamond and toothpicks. I used some bur oil for Rio Grande and I didn't notice any yellowing, and as it was a whiteish opal, I think I would of. Folks used to say put mineral oil on opals to rehydrate them, I hadn't heard that yellowing was a problem.

Audie, look at the photos of my work I posted recently in "New Work". All three of them have faces. In order to do eyelids, mouth lines, nostrils, and in the male head, moustache, beard and hair, I have to have very small tools. All of the commercial burs and even the dental burs are way to big. I use the pin collet for the dremel and use dress maker straight pins with diamond and oil. I use the head of the pin to do slight undercuts, and as the metal wears down the head gets smaller, enabling you to use it for even smaller areas. I also use brass escutheon pins for things a little larger. The needle is for really tiny spots.

The important thing is to get quality pins and needles. These can be found at fabric stores, not at the corner drugstore or mega-mart. The cheap pins' heads are off center and irregular.

The shop foreman at my gem and mineral society uses fumed silica to mix with the diamond powder and epoxy to redress the wheels. Than way the diamond is more evenly distributed and less has to be used to get good coverage. I made a set myself: 100, 200, 600, 1200, 3000, 8000. I have a little rock grinder with the expanding wheel and have to change them, but as I don't do a lot of cabbing it doesn't bother me too much to change them.

Your opals are beautiful. I look forward to seeing more.

Debbie K