red copper with rokusho, hido or hiirodo Options

[Jim Kelso]

Twenty five years ago or so I started noticing pieces of Japanese metalwork that were either primarily copper or had a copper element that was a very rich red, much deeper red that you usually get with copper in the usual rokusho irotsuke(Japanese traditional soft-metal alloy patination).

My earliest enquiry led to a recommendation to heat the piece and get a copper oxide which could then be patinated to a deep red. I tried this half-heartedly, getting mixed results, as I suspected this wasn't really what I was after, as the pieces I had seen were a mix of the usual alloys found in sword fittings, along with the copper, and that was what I really wanted. Heating a piece to get copper oxide would play hell with the rest of the alloys, and I knew there must be some other way.

When I met my teacher Toshimasa, this was one of the things I asked about as he had used hiirodo(as he calls it) on one tsuba. He said he used "pure copper" and gave me a piece that had some connection to the Shinkansen or Bullet Train.
I tried this but did not get the intense color as seen in his tsuba.

I put aside the quest for various reasons until a year or two ago, after seeing a kogo by Shoami Katsuyoshi and asking my friend Murata san, the owner, if he knew how it was patinated. He replied that his friend and mine Katayama san said it is "pure copper" boiled in the usual solution but for ten hours. "Pure copper" is a term that in context can mean many things, as pure is almost always a relative term.

I decided that I would try it with a piece of 110 copper alloy(99.9% pure, I think) and another piece of undetermined commercial sheet copper. Both of these pieces came out with very much the same color, after ten hours. I'm attaching the photo of the undetermined, but presumably relatively pure copper.

It was photographed in natural daylight and I did nothing to the photo except size it. The red on the thumbtack box is pinkish as it appears. Around the eight hour mark the color started shifting from orangeish to redder. I want to boil one piece for some more time to see what happens. I've compared this color to the Katsuyoshi kogo and on my monitor, they are very close.

I wanted to post the Toshimasa tsuba, but my scanner seems putzed. Maybe later.

[Janel]

Hi Jim,

It is good to learn about your investigation into the illusive red. This is one that requires much patience. Was this red copper/patina used on something that was just the copper, or was it (or could it) be used with other alloys in place with the copper on a piece? You said something about wrecking havoc with the other alloys, is this something that you will also explore?

I look forward to further information.

Janel

[Jim Kelso]

Hi Janel,

Basically the only difference in the hido treatment and the normal one used to patinate copper and it's alloys(shibuichi and shakudo) is the length of time.

When I made the test described above, I put in a piece of shakudo as a test also. It was at it's full color within an hour so I was anxious to see how it would stand up over ten hours. I had a little problem with a residue buildup on the shakudo as the pieces were laying flat in the bath for so long, but the color was fine. Normally I tend the process like a nervous hen, which includes swirling the rokusho off the pieces(it doesn't fully disolve), but I couldn't do this over ten hours. Oddly, this residue buildup was not a problem on the copper.

As I said, the color was fine on the shakudo after ten hours, and the residue problem can be solved by suspending the piece so it presents as little horizontal surface as possible and occasionally brushing the rokusho off with a small brush(while in the solution).

I didn't try a shibuichi sample but I'm sure it will be fine because there are historical examples with all the alloys present that look great. So the answer is yes, it will redden the copper, and leave the other alloys as usual.

It was the prospect of heating to create oxide, which would create problems by also oxidizing the other alloys. Not necessary.

Thanks, Janel

[Jim Kelso]

Also, here is a link to my tutorial on Japanese alloy patination for copper and the copper alloys shibuichi and shakudo,as well as the brass and bronze alloys found in traditional Japanese metalwork.

Japanese alloy patination

[Dick Bonham]

Hi Jim,
Thank you for the information. I am working on a piece that will look great with a deep red color. I looked at your website (which I do often for inspiration) and enjoyed it as much this time as I did on my first visit.
Dick www.erbonham.com

[JP Anderson]

Jim,

Thank you for the information on getting that and other colors. I can usually "see" how a metal is prepared but the excellent Japanese works, style and colors have often left me in wonder. I like that.

Your postings and web site have helped me on my personal quest for a unique style.

I ran across a picture of a Colt SAA you engraved in an book printed in 1985 the other day. It was excellent example of firearm engraving and by far my favorite in that photo spread. But... I can appreciate why you've moved on to more original challenges. I like engraving but I really want to do more than scrolls. You are one of my role models for sure.

Thank you for sharing your skills,

John

[Jim Kelso]

Dick thanks much for that. I enjoy your site as well, especially the insects which are fantastic.

Thanks also John. The gun engraving days were very instructive and I met a lot of helpful engravers back then. Learning scroll work was extremely helpful in "programing" tool control into my physique.

Thanks again,

Jim

[Phil White]

Thanks for posting this thread, Jim,

Although I am often inspired by traditional Japanese design, I don't work with traditional Japanese alloys, therefore it's always great to get gems like this that I can put to use with my own range of materials.

Much appreciated!

Phil

[Jim Kelso]

Glad you may find it useful Phil.
It's a striking color. Not something I would use every day, but when the occasion arises, nice to have in the arsenal.

Cheers,

Jim

[Jim Kelso]

Oh yes, thanks for reminding me Phil, speaking of range.
There is a progression of colors on the copper through the ten hour boiling. Every one of these colors, that appear before the red, is useful and can be found in the Japanese palette. I wanted to take photos, but didn't want to mess with the process.
The progression went something like this:

after hour one: a pumpkin orange or what the Japanese sometimes call suaka
between 2-4 hours a nutty brown going orangeish.
from 6-10 hours progressing from orange-brown to red

I suspect this is a general pattern, but experience teaches that every time is a little different.

This test was also done in three stages of 5, 3 and 2 hours each with the pieces kept in water over night, and a very light once-over with finger-tip with baking soda before re-immersion.

Have fun.

Jim

[Fred E. Zweig]

Hi Jim and thank you for this great topic. The red is very striking and uniform. I suspect the prolonged boiling may not be good for the fine silver.

Best,
Fred

[Jim Kelso]

Thanks Fred!

I suspect the prolonged boiling may not be good for the fine silver.

Perhaps not. I'm making a small piece that will be hido, so I will test some shibuichi and fine silver at that time.

[Fred E. Zweig]

That is great Jim. I look forward to seeing what happens and to hear of your experience with the prolonged soaking. I need to get back to doing more patinas.

best,
Fred

[metalartz]

Thank you so much for this information.

love your work

David

[Amati Lorenzo]

Hello. Sorry Jim, I don't mean to offend you, I just have a doubt.

pumpkin orange or what the Japanese call suaka

As I think it to be, Suaka is not referring to a colour, but means literally plain copper.

For those who can read kanji : 素銅

The second part of the kanji is copper, is the same kanji read as "dou" in shakudou.

Do I am wrong?

I wanted to post the Toshimasa tsuba, but my scanner seems putzed. Maybe later.

Please do that. I am researching about gendai tsubashi as much as I can for my study, and I have only one image of Toshimasa work..

[Doug Sanders]

from: http://www.una.edu/faculty/takeuchi/DrT_Jp...IRAE%5B3%5D.htm

These materials attain their beautiful patination through a special pickling bath, the result of which gives Shakudô 赤銅 a deep violet-black color, Shibuichi 四分一 shades of olive-brown to silvery-gray, Sentoku 宣徳 a yellowish color, and copper different tones of red. The most desirable color for copper is Suaka 素銅. Suaka 素銅 (or Akagane 赤金) is very refined copper that shows an orange-red hue when patinated. Yamagane 山金 ("mountain metal") is unrefined copper with many color variations. Although all those patination colors form only a thin layer on the surface, they are practically permanent as long as they are not subjected to scratching or extensive wear.

Seems like a case where the word describes a substance, as well as the color of that substance? ie. 'orange': fruit and color

[Jim Kelso]

Thanks Fred and David. Always more to uncover.

And thanks Doug. It's a good point.

No need to apologize Amati Lorenzo(is your given name Amati?). Thanks for your input.

I think you're correct, in that, suaka does refer to the metal itself, but I believe it also can refer to the color. My references including Ogawa say it means "refined" copper, as opposed, I would think, to yamagane or unrefined copper. However,since the goal of using any metal or alloy in the Japanese tradition is for it's patinated color, it's logical that the word for the metal will in some contexts be used as a color term. It's not, I think, necessarily incorrect, in this regard, to refer to the colors by their alloy names.

It is confusing with copper because it can yield many more colors than the other alloys, which, in general, yield quite specific colors.

In any event, my reference to it as a color was to draw a contrast between the "plain" or usual suaka pumpkinish or terracotta color and the later nutty brown and the still later hido or hiirodo.

Also, I don't think that there is such a vowel sound in Japanese as you suggest as "ou" in shakudou. My understanding is that it is simply shakudo with the o sound pronounced as the English "notify", but held longer.

I'm curious if you found the thread otherwise interesting, informative or stimulating?

Thanks,

Jim

[Amati Lorenzo]

My given name is Lorenzo. Unfortunately, Italian people formally put the family name first. (as Japanese, just a coincidence )

Also, I don't think that there is such a vowel sound in Japanese as you suggest as "ou" in shakudou. My understanding is that it is simply shakudo with the o sound pronounced as the English "notify", but held longer.

I have better explain about this. As Hepburn romanization suggests, it should be written with a long o; in both ways ō or oo. In fact, I am too used in writing it in Japanese using hiragana and kanji, where Japanese uses the "u" kana to make the "o" sound longer... so I never understood why Hepburn had to write another way, but this is another story. Anyway shakudō has a long last vocal.

I have always hard times trying to delete my Italian accent when I speak japanese anyway... but trust me, the only way you have to get the right kanji or write it's furigana are the hiragana o + u

I'm curious if you found the thread otherwise interesting, informative or stimulating?

Yes I do. First, because I am always in search for japanese alloys history, then because I have been trained in at two different ways about someage, niage or irotsuke as we wish to call it (to finish, to add a patina, to make a color.... In japan I have been taught by full time professional as "someage" anyway). Little different ways, one taught to me by Ford Hallam, the same way you use I believe, and another in Japan.

If you find my posting provoking, I can stop, just let me know, I just wrote for the sake of knowledge.

[Jim Kelso]

Hi Lorenzo. Not sure why you think I would be provoked. I too am on the quest for knowledge. I think with your background of training in Japan and elsewhere you could add more to our discussion on iroage or irotsuke patination in general. I would love to hear how your technique varies from anyone else's. I suppose Ford's and mine are mostly similar, but were developed independent of each other, so I'm sure there are differences as well.

I think it's only natural that differences in technique appear, no doubt in Japan as anywhere, and could instead of being a source of potential dispute, be a source of celebration of unique human variance.

Thanks,

Jim

[Jim Kelso]

I got my cranky scanner to work on this slide.
A tea house by Toshimasa (Sakai Masaichi) with plum in shakudo, shibuichi, gold and hiirodo.
I first saw this in 1987.