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dante lopez

help for riusha netski

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Guest Clive
Do Ethics, Aesthetics and Respect mean anything in the Art world?. Do people say hurtful things only when hiding behind a keyboard?. Would they be as rude if the discussion were taking place in Janel’s living room rather than on an impersonal web site in hyperspace?

 

Oh grow up Natasha.. All this hysterical nonsense is getting rather tiresome.. all I said in that the piece could not be worn without fear of it breaking. Your own collector apparently agrees with me and your own response is contradictory.. on the one hand you argue that that they could be worn while at the same time saying its not a functional piece.. You and Ross seem to think your take on this whole issue is something new.. its not.. its been doing the rounds for decades. When I was just starting out on my netsuke career I made lots of pieces in which I explored and pushed the boundaries of traditional netsuke design... here's a Ryusa concept piece I made in 1995. Its a double mobius that takes the light element of the Ryusa concept to its ultimate conclusion.. the walrus is carved paper thin... quite amazing just what you can do with a rotary tool!!

 

post-2059-1259845065.jpg

 

but I recognised that it could never be a functional netsuke and so provided a Lucite bowl for it to fit into.. with a fully practical and functional himotoshi.

 

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/2810706

 

I would however not dream of showing Dante that piece in answer to his question for the simple reason that it would it would confuse him. He asked for guidance on the traditional engineering of a functional Ryusa netsuke.. Christ what precisely are you so hurt by.. you don't know what criticism is.. another piece I created in 1995, Snail On Cola-Can drew so much criticism that the INS convened a special symposium to discuss just that piece.. did I start jumping up and down claiming that nasty people where threatening my livelihood? .. No I bloody didn't.. that's part of our job.. we make art to affect people.. it is designed to elicit a response.. good or bad.. learn to deal with it.

 

Regards

Clive

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Guest Clive
Is it just me, or is this simply a discussion of form vs. function? If netsuke are no longer functional, then form should be accentuated. That's just my two cents, and by no means am I even relevant, lol. Just wanted to throw that out there.

 

The trouble with that Prof is that in netsuke form and function simply cannot be separated into distinct parts.. many try but it simply just can't be done. I should know.. I've been trying for more than 20 years. ;)

 

What defines the form of a netsuke is its function.. the problem a lot of people have (myself included for many years) is that they simply don't like this irrefutable truth and insist on calling all the production of some contemporary carvers netsuke and then trying to construct convoluted illogical arguments to fit, rather than simply calling those pieces that could realistically be worn.. netsuke.. (with or without holes because they can be added later) and the rest sculpture.. sculpture, inspired by netsuke or a sculpture for the hand if you like. I personally think Natasha has made a simply stunning piece of sculpture... it can't realistically function as a netsuke but then again neither could Michelangelo's 'David' or Brancusi's 'Sleeping Muse'

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hi guys ,this get so hot that I decide to drop it ;) ,jajajajajajajajajajaj, nop! :D:):) but I think that there are many topics that can come out of this topic if any one likes to post some of this topics as individuals I will be glad to participate ,but remember that this topic is for gide,I understand all the points of view,when natasha post her pieces is because I ask her,yes I like to be criticism about my work,but I ask for it,natasha did not ask for it,so I understand her position I feel uncomfortable because I some parts on this topic star to go on a different direction hotter then gide for the style I want to make ,please don't take me rung I like discussions of the work and all that but I decide get in to it ,I like this topic goes on because I am sure is big help for many in this forum ,as gentleman's that we all are critics can be made as long they stick to the topic in question ,hope not to hurt any ones feelings,like I say if any one like to open another topic related to any of this perspectives I will love to join,,one thing only my self I see the two sides of the coin because I have a shop to sale to the public and have to deal whit what people wants what I like to do and bout parts are right because none of it can live whit out the other but this is another topic that I will love to get into it hope some one opens one or some :P ,LOVE TO ALL ;):P

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;) hey about orquides,are any of this from japan that will be fantastic many thin parts ;)

 

 

there will be parasitic plants all over the world Dante meaning there should be orchids in Japan, however which species I do not know.

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;) thanks , but I made my mind all ready is going to be a frog hidden behind a leaf ,whit some more leafs all around and some hotter things ,but thanks for the advice ,I will post some drawings of the concept,thanks for your assistant ;):D

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Guest Clive

I'm really looking to seeing how you progress Dante.. Good luck with it.

 

Regards

Clive

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hi guys ,before I star the one on jade decide to make one in mammoth ivory to see some of the technical situation that I will be facing so here is some previous sketches ,feel free to criticisms the piece ,thanks ( this won't be functional just a carving in to a similar style ) ;)

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The trouble with that Prof is that in netsuke form and function simply cannot be separated into distinct parts.. many try but it simply just can't be done. I should know.. I've been trying for more than 20 years. ;)

 

What defines the form of a netsuke is its function.. the problem a lot of people have (myself included for many years) is that they simply don't like this irrefutable truth and insist on calling all the production of some contemporary carvers netsuke and then trying to construct convoluted illogical arguments to fit, rather than simply calling those pieces that could realistically be worn.. netsuke.. (with or without holes because they can be added later) and the rest sculpture.. sculpture, inspired by netsuke or a sculpture for the hand if you like. I personally think Natasha has made a simply stunning piece of sculpture... it can't realistically function as a netsuke but then again neither could Michelangelo's 'David' or Brancusi's 'Sleeping Muse'

 

I see, so form and function are integral parts of nestuke. Suppose, for a moment, that an emperor/empress wore netsuke. These could be very delicate, indeed. And if broken, could be easily replaced. No? Natasha's pieces are very sculptural, I agree, but just because they might break quickly doesn't mean they aren't netsuke. If my arm breaks, is it still not an arm?

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Guest Clive
I see, so form and function are integral parts of nestuke. Suppose, for a moment, that an emperor/empress wore netsuke. These could be very delicate, indeed. And if broken, could be easily replaced. No? Natasha's pieces are very sculptural, I agree, but just because they might break quickly doesn't mean they aren't netsuke. If my arm breaks, is it still not an arm?

 

If thats is indeed how you now "see" it Prof, you have misunderstood me.

I did not say that say that form and function are integral parts.. I said that "form and function simply cannot be separated into distinct parts."

I went on to say that "what defines the form of a netsuke is its function" .. I hope you see the fundamental difference as its important to an understanding of my response to your comment regarding the Emperor/Empress.. I presume you have introduced such luminaries as an example of people who might wear the finest netsuke.. fair enough.. but I would suggest that the finest netsuke in Japan would be those that are considered the best expression of the form being defined by the function. To put it bluntly a netsuke that could easily be broken would simply be regarded as a bad netsuke and therefore not worn by anybody of discerning taste.

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Sorry Clive, what I meant was form AND function had to be inseparable. I did understand you correctly, no worries.

 

I'm not sure I agree with your second contention, however. Perhaps the more delicate a person is, the more delicate their netsuke could be. An unbroken, but very delicate netsuke could indicate a very prestigious status due to the degree of care taken in wearing/preserving it.

 

A fragile netsuke is a very unlikely netsuke, for sure, but it is still a netsuke. By your own admission, "a netsuke that could easily be broken would simply be regarded as a bad netsuke and therefore not worn by anybody of discerning taste." In other words, a bad netsuke is still a netsuke. So my next question, if a carving is designed as a netsuke but not worn as a netsuke, is it still a netsuke?

 

Don't get me wrong. As artists we are bound to disagree on many things. You should not be so vehement about having other artists accept your opinion. It is not becoming.

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Guest Clive

Thanks for the advice Rhubarb.. but I decide what becomes me. FWIW.. I don't think I'm at all vehement about others accepting my opinion... to be quite candid I don't really give a toss about whether they do or do not.. I will however always try to have the courage to defend my opinion.. and hopefully have the humility to change that opinion if it is flawed.

 

As for your question.. if a netsuke is designed as a netsuke then it is designed to be worn.

 

Regards

Clive

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Thanks for the advice Rhubarb.. but I decide what becomes me. FWIW.. I don't think I'm at all vehement about others accepting my opinion... to be quite candid I don't really give a toss about whether they do or do not.. I will however always try to have the courage to defend my opinion.. and hopefully have the humility to change that opinion if that that opinion if it is flawed.

 

As for your question.. if a netsuke is designed as a netsuke then it is designed to be worn.

 

Regards

Clive

 

Ok, thank you! It is hard to gauge the emotional content of these posts...

 

Her netsuke *are* designed to be worn, even if they wouldn't last a day in regular use. I think my point remains, fragile netsuke are still netsuke. If no one wears netsuke anymore, who cares how fragile they are? Are netsuke defined as something that *has* to be worn? If so, is that still the case today? If my car breaks down, is it not a car?

 

Perhaps this is a discussion of past vs. present functions of art? Your input is highly valued.

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Guest Ford

If a man speaks his mind in a forest and no woman can hear him is he still wrong? :rolleyes:

 

It is hard to gauge the emotional content of these posts...

 

That's what emoticons are for...of which there are far too few on tcp. ( walks away feeling misunderstood and bewildered smiley) :unsure:

 

Namaste,

ford

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Guest Clive
Ok, thank you! It is hard to gauge the emotional content of these posts...

 

Her netsuke *are* designed to be worn, even if they wouldn't last a day in regular use. I think my point remains, fragile netsuke are still netsuke. If no one wears netsuke anymore, who cares how fragile they are? Are netsuke defined as something that *has* to be worn? If so, is that still the case today? If my car breaks down, is it not a car?

 

Perhaps this is a discussion of past vs. present functions of art? Your input is highly valued.

 

I suggest you reread my critique of Natasha's piece.. I simply stated (and I think very clearly) that they wouldn't last very long if worn. Your above post clearly suggests that you agree with my critique... thank you.. your input is valued.

 

As for the rest of your contribution.. I simply don't understand why anybody has to insist on calling a work a netsuke when it clearly cannot function very well as a netsuke. If I go to a salesroom to buy a car.. I don't expect to be shown a wheelbarrow simply because it could in some strange way be it could be considered a "car" of sorts.. Lets keep it real.. you can come up with all manner of strange convoluted semantic arguments that might have some minor merit.. but really.. why bother.. Why not simply call the it a work of art and find something better to do with your time.

 

 

Regards

Clive

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Hi,

I asked a question a while back and never did get an answer. Since the original question was about beginning a project and the size and weight of a riusha netsuke I hope the question is appropriate. What would be the largest size and weight a riusha netsuke could be created and still be considered a netsuke? I do know that sumo wrestlers wore huge tobacco pouches with very large netsuke. I have been thinking of making a riusha netsuke out of metal. This would be the opposite of being too fragile. In this case it might be too robust and heavy.

Dick

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Guest Clive

I'm sorry Dick.. I seem to have missed that in the scrum. It is indeed a pertinent question.. If I presented a work calling it a netsuke that was as large and heavy as Michelangelo's David could it technically considered valid simply because one argues that netsuke aren't worn anymore?

 

PS.. Michelangelo's David does in fact have an opening (between the arm and the torso) which would serve as a natural himotoshi. :rolleyes:

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Hi,

I asked a question a while back and never did get an answer. Since the original question was about beginning a project and the size and weight of a riusha netsuke I hope the question is appropriate. What would be the largest size and weight a riusha netsuke could be created and still be considered a netsuke? I do know that sumo wrestlers wore huge tobacco pouches with very large netsuke. I have been thinking of making a riusha netsuke out of metal. This would be the opposite of being too fragile. In this case it might be too robust and heavy.

Dick

 

Hi Dick,

 

Make away, I'd love to see what you come up with. Be sure and take enough in-process photos so you can make a tutorial!

 

As to being too heavy, the only real measure of merit is simply an engineering matter - if the netsuke is so heavy that it either overbalances the sagemono (netsuke secured other "hanging things" than just inro) pulling the cord up and over the sash, or distorts the sash in an unattractive matter, then it is too heavy. I've seen solid iron netsuke in the past (don't know if they were cast iron or carved, I wasn't into metal then) but they were pretty heavy. Unless you're going to make a solid lead manju, I'd say you should be OK.

 

As far as the netsuke damaging a delicate inro, since inro are carried in a completely open and unprotected position and easily brushed against walls and objects, I believe that damage from the netsuke is the least of damaging concerns. And certainly a lacquer inro rubbing against a pretty abrasive silk kimono would be a concern as well.

 

In my small collection I have a very large tiger netsuke that is supposedly a sumo netsuke (could be used as a small okimono) and a very tiny child's netsuke - an interesting juxtaposition of the extremes of size. I'll try and post a joint photo later today.

 

And here's an interesting observation I've made in the past about ryusa netsuke I've met: all the ones I've seen were perfectly round, and the himotoshi was in the exact center of the back. I believe they were initially turned on a lathe and hollowed out at the same time with tiny bent/curved lathe chisels through what would eventualy become the himotoshi.

 

I recently saw a guy turning wood Christmas ornaments and he completely hollowed them out through a tiny hole in the end, leaving very thin walls and an extremely light finished product. I gave it a try, and was able to get it to work, after a fashion. Of course, it took a bit of practice not to turn the walls too thin and I turned right through the walls a couple of times. Of course, I doubt this would work with either jade or metal. You could maybe try to spin the metal shape on a lathe?

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Hi Clive,

What I am interested in is a piece within the rough parameters of a netsuke. What I am thinking of is a piece that can be both a netsuke and a piece of medalic sculpture. I have an ivory netsuke on a tobacco pouch that is 3" D x 1" thick. I think some of the Sumo wrestlers I have seen could wear a netsuke as large and heavy as Michelangelo's David. I really am trying to get a serious answer. How large do you think I could go and have it technically be a netsuke?

Dick

post-15-1259945640.jpg

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Guest Clive
Hi Clive,

What I am interested in is a piece within the rough parameters of a netsuke. What I am thinking of is a piece that can be both a netsuke and a piece of medalic sculpture. I have an ivory netsuke on a tobacco pouch that is 3" D x 1" thick. I think some of the Sumo wrestlers I have seen could wear a netsuke as large and heavy as Michelangelo's David. I really am trying to get a serious answer. How large do you think I could go and have it technically be a netsuke?

Dick

 

I'm sorry Dick.. I was just trying to illustrate just how absurd these discussions can become if we just disregard what the purpose of a netsuke actually is.. I noticed that Tom has now provided some guidance that hopefully answers your question..

 

Clive

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Guest Clive
Out of curiosity, how many out there regularly wear their kimono around town to test drive their netsuke/ojime/inro.

 

Otherwise it's all theoretical. :unsure:

 

Karl

 

OK.. I give up. Consider this my last post on the subject. :rolleyes:

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Oh c'mon, what I really want is pictures of members in their best kimonos (or yukatas). As artists, if you are going to suffer for your art, let's walk the talk. I will, of course, participate (got mine around here somewhere...this is gonna take a whole new thread). :rolleyes: Whose's game?

 

Karl

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