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Karl Carvalho

Mokume Gane

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thanks very much for those links. :D I was unaware of Alistair McCullum's work, it's very well conceived I think.

 

Not so much on his technique, more eye candy -

 

http://www.commissionacraftsman.com/makers...lio.asp?id=1100

 

I'd really like to make myself a sake set from mokume... That said, I'm doing well if I get the opportunity to make anything for myself!

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Guest ford hallam

Hi Peter,

 

thanks for the link, nice to see prices on things for once too :)

 

I think mokume would be quite attractive on a sake set but the sake will most likely not be very kind to the patina :( ., particularly after the 3 rd flask and you get a bit messy :o:D That's if you're anything like me :D

 

cheers, or should I say, Kampai!

 

Ford

 

Hi Patrick,

 

I really like the flow of the pattering on the fuchi/kashira too. Impressive clamping set up too.

I may still ask you to make those mandrils for me some time, perhaps after the new arrival has landed. :)

Incidentally, I did'nt get that last e-mail you mentioned. could you try again, we did have the whole network down for 4 days a couple of weeks ago :(

 

regards, Ford

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Aloha Patrick,

 

Thanks for the pics. The fuchi/kashira (in that light) look almost like lacquer work. For the bracelet (?), it looks like you bonded your mokume to a backing to link up. Low temperature solder?

 

Karl

 

Thanks for the link, Peter.

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It's a, not unknown, technique, to create a marbleized sheet which can be then further worked. Good for leaves, as in this case. The resulting metal is known as "madara-gane ( Dalmatian metal, if memory serves, I must check my notes :o )

 

Hi Ford,

 

sorry for jumping back into the further discussion but I found the point you mentioned interesting and new for me. :D

Is madara gane done with spelter solders or it is a similar fusion technique like kasane-uchi and hammered in after fusing? :)

 

Berlin-Karl

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Guest ford hallam

Hi Karl,

 

both methods are used, the basic plate can also be roughened with chisels first and/or areas hollowed and filled with solder or other metal filings to fuse locally.

 

I'll post an image of a particularly impressive tsuba which uses this technique to excellent effect.

 

regards, Ford

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Hi Ford,

 

It seems to be related with sawari zogan. When done using gold filings could it be called sunago zogan?

Looking forward to see the tsuba :D:o:)

 

Berlin Karl

 

PS. This is a link to the site of a well known german based jeweller. He uses similar techniques. Michael Zobel

One can enlarge the pic on that site.

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For the bracelet (?), it looks like you bonded your mokume to a backing to link up. Low temperature solder?

 

Hi Karl,

The bracelet is a notification bracelet of a health condition. It is 14K and the information is engraved on the inside. The Mokume is a Veneer that was soldered on with Tix solder. At the time I was not really doing inlays. This was before I met Ford hehe.

patrick

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Aloha Guys,

 

Patrick

Thanx for the quick answer. Yes, that Hallam guy has a way of altering reality. :o

 

Karl

Thank you for bringing up these techniques that I am not familiar with (but will certainly bring up in my class). Now, if you guys can lay them out in some comprehensible order, it would be much appreciated. A collaborated tutorial perhaps? (All those zogans. :D )

 

Ford

Just jumping in here, but does the madara-gane you mentioned relate to iroe (as mentioned in von Neumann)?

 

KC

(Just trying out one of my aliases. I'm a Gemini tambien, Ford. :) )

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Guest ford hallam

Aloha Karl,

 

I don't recall what van Neuman had to say and those particular photocopies are hiding from me right now :blink: but basically iro ( colour) e (picture) refers to all multi-metal coloured inlay work that is representational, ie; flowers, warriors animals etc. I don't know that it is so specific as to exclude more abstract designs though.

 

Material like mokume gane and madara gane could also be used in this sort of work, as in this tsuba by Hagia Katsuhira, 1804~1886. The design is classic iro-e and the ground is created by locally fusing other metals with the copper to make a new, somewhat diffused, colour. I'd guess a bit of tin and lead was applied to a roughly gouged out areas and then fused at a temperature below the melting point of copper, 1083 degrees C.

 

You sometimes also see inlay work done on regular mokume. There's a lovely set by the Matsuo Gassan 1815~1875 ( really Otsuki school :huh: ) with a wolf on a subtle shibuichi and shakudo mokume ground, in the Boston museum collection.

here's is the kogai and kozuka.

 

 

 

 

regards, Ford

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Guest ford hallam

Hi Sjoerd,

 

glad you like, these guy's are pretty clever huh? :huh:

 

The subject on the tsuba is that of Raiden, the god of thunder. The use of localized alloy fusing like this is quite rare but it can be very effective, like here, to depict the ominous clouds. It's also a great example of an artist using particular specialist technique to really great effect.

 

The kozuka and kogai are also, in my opinion, very good examples of that sort of sensitivity. The artist has'nt just used mokume for pure pattern, but I think the swirling shakudo and shibuichi suggests the mist in the early morning( or misty dusk twilight), after battle, the lonely wolf scavenging on the remains of the dead. It evokes much pathos for me.

 

regards, Ford ( dedicated to bringing you the best in Classical Japanese metalwork :blink: )

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...these guy's are pretty clever huh? ;)

The artist has'nt just used mokume for pure pattern, but I think the swirling shakudo and shibuichi suggests the mist in the early morning( or misty dusk twilight), after battle, the lonely wolf scavenging on the remains of the dead. It evokes much pathos for me.

 

regards, Ford ( dedicated to bringing you the best in Classical Japanese metalwork :huh: )

Hi,

thanks for sharing these gorgious pieces. The wolf reveals a kind of dark humour to me.

Just a question on the tsuba. I find its hard to imagine that these rather random pattern were chiseled out.

For me it looks more like fusing two semifluid metals. One cast first into a mould then the other still overheated is cast over it and very fluid is fusing randomly along the grain of the first metal.

Could this be possible? :blink:

 

regards

Berlin Karl :D

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Aloha Ford,

 

Thank you very much for posting these images. They make me want to reach through my (new) monitor and touch them. Gorgeous. That's what I'm talking about! :)

Von Nuemann (rightly or wrongly) describes iroe as a soldered capping for repousse contours. I think we need to lean on our Berlin friend to bring out that tutorial on soldering. I don't have his metallurgical background or expertise, but I see questions on low temp soldering and fusion on the horizon.

btw - If these masters were using molten tin, lead etc., why do their attribution dates show them living to a ripe old age?

 

Karl

Your question remind me of something Don Fogg did a while back (can't find it now) where he impressed a texture onto a tsuba, then removed it. I'm wondering if we are looking at a similar technique? :D

 

KC

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Guest ford hallam

Morning Gents,

 

Hi Berlin Karl,

 

What you are thinking of, pouring a molten metal into/onto another metal in a mould is called fukiwake in Japanese. It requires the two metals to have very similar physical properties, especially expansion and contraction rates ( co-efficients). I don't believe it would be possible on such a small object like a tsuba as the first metal must still be fluid when the second one is added. Here is a picture of a vase which exhibits this effect very well. The artist, Hannya Tamotsu; born in 1941, is a leading exponent of this technique in Japan today.

The technique on the tsuba is created a little like reticulation, but with the addition of other elements to help lower the melting point in those specific areas and to help the new mix to diffuse a little. This is also why it helps to roughen the area so as to help with the diffusion at the interface.

 

Aloha Karl,

 

what Von Neumann ( incorrectly) calls iro-e are the two associated techniques of oki-gane and kise-gane application. These are the techniques which are used to apply different alloys of metal to uchi-dachi objects. Like on iro-e munuki or obi-dome.

 

Kashima Ikkoku III, with whom I studied nunome-zogan died at the ripe old age of 98, he used mercury in his gilding process all his long life. The trick is not to breathe the fumes in :D . Actually they would burn a stick of incense nearby, watch the direction the smoke trailed and ensure they stayed down-wind of the fumes.

 

Don textured a tsuba by imprinting various elements of fire scale and/or metal filings. He also fused solder, I think. This would'nt create a new alloy locally though.

 

hope this helps,

 

Ford

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Aloha Ford,

 

I appreciate your clearing that up regarding iroe. Those techniques appeal to me also.

I was boulder hopping up the stream behind my house, heading for the mountains to walk my dog. Contemplating the metals universe, I missed the next outcrop and went into a pool, scattering frogs, mountain o'opu (a gobi) and other critters. I had a eureka moment. Copper tsuba + lead/tin alloy + localized fusion = color differential. Possibilities emerged. To quote our wise friend Magnus "My mind is reeling with ideas - so awesome to get to play with the universe for a living is it not?"

 

mahalo

KC

 

p.s. - Be sure to stay upwind. :)

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Guest ford hallam

Aloha Karl,

 

I see you've not been paying attention in class :D;) , if you go back and read the description of the tsuba I posted, you'll see I suggested localized fusing, probably with lead and tin. :):D:D

 

you also mentioned a chart you needed. Can you remind me what that was about, my mind is like the void right now :( cheers. and have fun making brown metals this week-end. I look forward to seeing the fruits of your labours.

 

Ford B)

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if you go back and read the description of the tsuba I posted, you'll see I suggested localized fusing, probably with lead and tin. :):D:D

you also mentioned a chart you needed. Can you remind me what that was about, my mind is like the void right now :(

 

Aloha Ford,

 

I give you full credit for that one. :D Just sounding out the process in review. I was describing the concepts and design possibilities that leapt up at me at me as I looked down at pools surrounded by basalt boulders with raw olivine (peridot) crystals, wild lilly pads, muti-colored pebbles and aquatic life. My dog looked at me like I was crazy.

I scanned for the chart reference, but also voided out. It may have been a comment about more to come. I've ordered the text, Kodo Zuroko, as recommended. I'll take the time to establish better reference points before getting lost again. I really want to move on to the next steps. I think I'll feel much better with something "in hand", even if I'm not totally successful.

 

KC

 

I think I've been downwind too long. ;)

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Hi Ford,

 

Ceramics. That's the first thing I thaught of looking at the vase by Hannya Tamotsu. Elegant in form and contrast. From what my screen is willing to unravel to me the change from one metal to the next seems pretty crisp. Beautiful.

 

thanks, Sjoerd

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Hi Sjoerd,

 

it is a lovely form isn't it? The areas where the two dissimilar metals blend actually shows a very gentle diffusion, some areas are of course more widely diffused. It's this "accidental" aspect of this technique that makes it so tricky. The metals need to bond well enough and it must at least look interesting and beautiful. :D

 

Hi Berlin Karl, I just noticed the link you posted back in post no#56. I really like that work, almost makes me want to go back to making jewellery. :(

 

Regards to all, Ford

 

p.s. Aloha Karl, I hope you've dried out by now :) , that description of the river the slipped in has got me just a little envious, it sounds magical. Perhaps I'll get to see it one day. ;)

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I have found both this thread, and the Japanese alloys thread absolutely fascinating. I have seen examples on artifacts, but before tuning into this forum, I knew very little about making either, other than having a bit of experience with iron mokume.

 

Thank you all for sharing.

 

Phil

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Aloha All,

 

I want to second Phil's words and thanks. :( These threads have captured my attention to the point of neglecting other things (namely doing it, in addition to my regular gigs). But the generous sharing of knowledge by members like Ford, Jim, Patrick, Karl, Dan, Jeff, Sjoerd et al keeps me coming back. I hope these topics can continue as long as we have something positive to discuss and it leads to results.

Going back to something Karl mentioned somewhere about techniques from other places, I, for one, would be interested if someone started a thread about work from places like the Middle East (Taz or the MIA Ekrem?). I'm pretty sure that our European friends have some things to relate on this area of study.

My interests have obviously been centered on Japan, but as I get into the Oppi Untracht texts, I find a hunger for more. :)

 

KC

 

Not going off topic here, just food for thought.

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Hi, there,

 

to prevent this nice thread form falling asleep I want to discuss this tsuba.

 

 

It was made by Oso Sadanao.

 

I think it is not been made in a classical mokume manner. For me it looks more like a combination of spiral mokume and other mokume pieces flooded with gold.

What are you thinking about this "humble" piece of metal? :)

 

Karl

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Hi, there,

 

to prevent this nice thread form falling asleep I want to discuss this tsuba.

 

 

It was made by Oso Sadanao.

 

I think it is not been made in a classical mokume manner. For me it looks more like a combination of spiral mokume and other mokume pieces flooded with gold.

What are you thinking about this "humble" piece of metal? :rolleyes:

 

Karl

 

It makes me want a better look. If you would not mind please email me the full size file? I collect pictures of Mokume sword fittings (I can't afford to collect the actual items). It looks like a very interesting piece.

Thank you,

Patrick

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Guest ford hallam

Just thought some of you might be interested in seeing this sample of mokume. This is actually available commercially from a company called Komokin, in Tokyo. It comes as a fused billet about 5mm thick, of copper, shakudo and shibuichi. These are experimental patterns I chiseled and the plate has been patinated in the standard Japanese solution. The colours are pretty accurate in this image, the background is plain white card.

 

 

regards to all, Ford

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