Guest ford hallam Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Hi all, a long shot probably but does anyone know anything substantial about the Janvier Transfer Engraving Machine? I know what it is and can do but would like to learn a little more of the actual mechanics or even if they are still commercially available. Perhaps what antique/second hand ones might cost....quite a bit I imagine. any and all help much appreciated, thanks, Ford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunderlich Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Hi Ford, I probably know what you wants to do. But there a very few people owning such a thing and still fewer wanting to sell it. For those who do not know what the point for the discussions is : Click here and you may see a Medaillon Copying Lathe Cheers, Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 For those who still not know what Ford wants to do From the U.S.Mint site Or is Ford into hobo nickels big scale? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hastings Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 My connection is not good lately or I would look this up myself, but try looking up Patents for the lathe. You can generally get detailed mechanical drawings of such devices. Regards, Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ford hallam Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Thanks fellas, for the help. I just thought with a machine like this one could really make some BIG money , I mean, the mint just seems to make more whenever they need any extra. cheers, Ford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Blades Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 There is a copying machine that goes back a bit invented by Benjamin Cheverton, if you Google it you can find a picture . I have a photocopy out of a book by Carson Ritchie , it could do 3-D larger or smaller and was not very highly thought of, too easy........ I do casting for a sculptor /medallist who has worked for the Royal Mint in the UK (look for IRB under the Queens head). He said that they used to have half a dozen and scrapped them when they went computerised, they sold them off and a friend of his bought one cheap. I quizzed him about what they looked like and all he could remember, not being mechanically minded ,was that they had a lot of cogs involved . He said that you got a much better result than you do now with CAD/CAM. I bet the Science Museum would have one. Regards Tim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon F Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 I quizzed him about what they looked like and all he could remember, not being mechanically minded ,was that they had a lot of cogs involved . He said that you got a much better result than you do now with CAD/CAM. I bet the Science Museum would have one. Regards Tim. Interesting that the old way got the better results. funny how that pops up now and then!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ford hallam Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 the old way got the better results stick to the old ways boys....... , all this newfangled nonsense is bad for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunderlich Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Thats True. (Goldschmiedemuseum Wien) Please notice the subtle working clothes. Cheers, Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsterling Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Thanks fellas, for the help. I just thought with a machine like this one could really make some BIG money , I mean, the mint just seems to make more whenever they need any extra. cheers, Ford I think you've got it backwards, Ford! It looks like this machine makes small money out of BIG! A good government project - take a million dollars (pounds) and make it do what a regular person could get done for 50 bucks (quid)... On a more serious, note, you might ask the machine question on these engraving forums. Some of the greybeards over there might know more about it. http://www.engravingforum.com/ http://www.igraver.com/forum/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ford hallam Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Thanks Tom, for that link. I'll have a little poke around. I'm just interested in the mechanics of how these things work. I don't actually have anything that I'd want to use one for but Rene Lalique used one to produce the ivory figures and portraits he incorporated into his jewellery so I was intrigued to see what it could do. Regards, Ford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Bonham Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Hi Ford, Being a medalist (among other things) I have seen several Janvier machines carve dies. The machines are very large and expensive. They are also designed to do medals or coins. What you need is a three dimensional pantograph. They are simple and do a very nice job. I have only seen one carve gunstocks and it worked very well. Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ford hallam Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Hi Dick, that sounds a little more like it, I did wonder about the use of a coin die cutting apparatus doing 3D work. Thanks , Ford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Blades Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Hi Ford, I found a picture of the Cheverton machine, I think it would only be OK with fairly large items. I don't know if you all would approve but if I have to do an opposite handed item when I have carved a wax, I use a Roland 3D scanner and Carving machine. It does the roughing out and I can then hand finish. Buy now while stocks last , they are going to stop making the scanners, I wouldn't be without mine , It saves me loads of time. regards Tim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hastings Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 Hi Ford,Being a medalist (among other things) I have seen several Janvier machines carve dies. The machines are very large and expensive. They are also designed to do medals or coins. What you need is a three dimensional pantograph. They are simple and do a very nice job. I have only seen one carve gunstocks and it worked very well. Dick I know three people that have Machines like this. Three dimensional mills that use a pattern to guide the mill head. They can change the scale without electronics. I have only seen one of them run. They are all fairly old and basicallly retired, the machines that is but all still work. I personnally am interested in a CNC conversion setup for tooling and machine work for various hobbies of mine. I want to build all sort of machines. You can get a some nice mill set ups with high resolutions stepper motors, complete with computer and software for $10-12K these days. Shop Task has an interesting machine for the hobbiest. It is made in china, but the customer support is american and unsurpassed. Their machines are in so much demand that they will buy them back even years later for original purchase value less shipping (assumeing they are in good shape). Haveing the lathe built in saves space if you are lacking. Good hobbiest tools. I think I could do a lot with one and the prices are not bad at all. I ramble on. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ford hallam Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 Hi Tim, thanks for that image, it really makes the process quite clear. I reckon that based on that photo one might recreate something workable.....hmmm. I'd love to see a little of the process you use, the Roland 3D scanner, do you have some examples of the sort of result it produces? Hi Patrick, that set up you describe sounds quite clever too, if a little pricey. I'll go and have a little poke around, thanks. Thanks again all, for all the links and info. cheers, Ford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Blades Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 Hi Ford, I am carving a model for a pair of earrings at the moment, I will take some photos as I go and post them. The model I am working on is about 20mm diameter, the machine I have will go up to 6"x8" which is plenty big enough for me. I thought when I first saw one that they would put hand carvers out of business, but unless your work is pretty geometric it is still easier to work by hand, and make alterations as you go. regards Tim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Blades Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Hi All, Here are some pics of an earring wax I have been working on, I had already started on it when this subject came up so the first pic is fairly well roughed out. Next most of the detail put in and the back hollowed out. An angled view , the white dot is 10mm diameter. The wax is then put in the MDX-20 and fixed down with double sided tape. The pointer travels across in rows 1/20mm apart and is very gentle , you can scan plasticine without leaving marks. to scan this wax took about 15 hours, lower resolution is obviously faster. This is the machine ,about as big as a printer. A representation of the scan, note the double sided tape came out well! The 3D file is 'flipped' to give a mirror image and then cut in a block of wax, you cannot see what is happening, the swarf piles up as it cuts. the opposite handed wax with most of the wax dust brushed out. The base wax filed off with a coarse mill file . The pair together , ready to be carved to finish, and some carving tools to get into the crevices. I hope you don't disapprove too much, carving good opposite pairs by hand is not easy! Any questions please ask, regards Tim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ford hallam Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Amazing Tim, lovely sequence of images and what a brilliant use of technology. No quibbles from me...just admiration. Now...where can I get one? thanks, F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Blades Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Hi Ford, Roland have dealers in South Africa, http://www.rolanddg.co.za/index.html They are discontinuing the two relevant models,so press for a deep discount, read more on the MDX users forum on Yahoo. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/mdx_users/ The MDX-15 has a work area of 6"x4", the MDX-20 8"x6" In the UK they cost about £2000 and £3000 respectively full price new. A lot of jewellery CAD users started with one and then moved on to a better(and more expensive) one, you get what you pay for. You could ask on http://3dcadjewelry.com/phpbb/index.php?si...bd9c267eea59b69 and see if anyone wants to sell one , they only come up on E-bay very occasionally. There are attachments such as a more powerful(and quieter!) motor, see http://fourth-axis.com/ I just think they are an easy place to start, even though they have their shortcomings. It's a shame you have moved from the UK, you must have been just down the road from me. regards Tim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ford hallam Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Hi Tim, thanks for all that. They work out to about £1000 here...incredible! To be honest I would'nt use something like this in my artwork but it seems such an amazing piece of kit that I can't help thinking of so many jewellery related application that I am now seriously thinking about getting one. I used to live in Chippenham, nr Bath. I was there for about 9 years...pity. I travel to London regularly though...I met up with Karl last November perhaps next time you could join us for a pint or 3 Thanks again, their site is bookmarked. cheers, Ford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 ...perhaps next time you could join us for a pint or 3 Make that an official invitation and you can count me in as well! (and after some more pints you will understand my dutch!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ford hallam Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Hi Leon, absolutely...anyone who can make it is more than welcome... time and place to be advised. We may even be able to entice Clive out of his cave . You'll probably understand my Afrikaans after a couple of pints too cheers, Ford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Blades Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 OK Ford, I am Near Tetbury and the Arboretum, let me know when you are coming. Are you and Clive allowed out together? regards Tim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ford hallam Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Are you and Clive allowed out together? not often....and only if we alert New Scotland Yard, MI5, the Fire Brigade and the local nurses college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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