How is it possible

[Davey]

Hi Everyone,

Can someone enlighten me? I was having a look round on the internet yesterday and came across a sight that was selling netsuke and other eastern crafts. The ones that I looked at, to my inexperienced eye, seemed very good indeed. The detail finish and colours are all something that I can aspire to.

THEN I looked at the price!!

$11 each (£6) !! How can anybody make these charming pieces for the price absolutely baffles me. Can anybody inform me as to how they do it? I know people work for a lot less in some parts of the world than others but this is virtually giving it away. Or is it me just being naive?

Kind Regards

Davey

[Debbie]

There are people in alot of countries that only make maybe 50 cents a day that carve these things for the big companys and then they are sold everywhere so the big guys can make thousands on the back of the poor - also think some of the carvers are only 7, 8, 9 years old and work 20 hours a day - so by people buying these things you are promoting the practice of 'slavery' Think about it!!!!!!!

[Davey]

There are people in alot of countries that only make maybe 50 cents a day that carve these things for the big companys and then they are sold everywhere so the big guys can make thousands on the back of the poor - also think some of the carvers are only 7, 8, 9 years old and work 20 hours a day - so by people buying these things you are promoting the practice of 'slavery' Think about it!!!!!!!

 

 

Hi Debbie,

I agree with a lot that you say. Think that the carvers that did the items I'm referring to are more experienced than children. Yes, you're right about the slave labor but I don't know about not buying the items.

We recently found out about one of the larger stores in town that was selling clothing at ridiculously low prices and it turns out that it was a case of extreme exploitation of labor. But what do you do? If everybody refuses to buy who suffers the most? Yes - the workers.

Anyway better get back to the workshop.

Regards

Davey

[Janel]

Hi Davey,

 

Good question!!! My guess is that they were cast in resin, touched with a quick rotary tool, eyes jammed in and stained, all with very little care for serious attention to developing detail. The base that the cat is standing on looks like a wad of gum... I won't go on with other criticisms.

 

I hope you aspire to a much higher level than this sort of work! Thank you for bringing this to our attention!

 

Janel

[Doug Sanders]

I think it's a knee-jerk reaction to assume we've got a sweatshop of 7-9 year olds work on this carving. Sorry. They are cheap because the designs are mass-produced and semi-automated. I think it's probable the initial forms are carved by machine. As Janel suggests, they're touched up with rotary tools and if you do, I'm guessing, 50 in a day you get quite quick at it. Polishing is poor and by wheels.

The more you see of these 'Hong Kong' netsuke (if we can call them that?) the more your realize all the eyes are the same, the anatomy isn't right at all and they lack any individuality. There are even instances of original designs by established carvers being copied by these mills.

Still, they sell to people who lack the skills to discern mass produced from one-of-a-kind or those who want a quick collection of curios for a shelf in the bedroom.

 

-Doug

[Davey]

Think you are on the right track, Doug.

In any event I'll put the url here so that you can see more clearly what I'm on about.

Dave

http://www.look-sea.com

[Davey]

Hi Davey,

 

Good question!!! My guess is that they were cast in resin, touched with a quick rotary tool, eyes jammed in and stained, all with very little care for serious attention to developing detail. The base that the cat is standing on looks like a wad of gum... I won't go on with other criticisms.

 

I hope you aspire to a much higher level than this sort of work! Thank you for bringing this to our attention!

 

Janel

 

Hi Janel,

Maybe I picked the wrong image to show you what I meant. I agree with that particular one, not the best example. Perhaps you can see better from the url http://www.look-sea.com

Regards

Dave

[Doug Sanders]

Hey Davey-

I had a look at the link you provided and would urge you to have a look at some of the bigger auction houses and what they're selling in the way of netsuke. Bonham's and I.M. Chait for instance routinely sell small carvings or quality in their Japanese sales. Also have a look at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art's website (www.lacma.org) and search their online collections.

The more one looks and educates they eye, the more one can distinguish between tool work that is obviously from a rotary burr versus that from a handle chisel,gouge, or scraper.

As Janel suggests, pay attention to the details of eyes, mouth, and paws for animals. Finally, with netsuke, pay attention to the cord holes, or 'himotoshi' and their placement within the figure and so on. All of this fits into the category of connoisseurship, or course, and comes with time, but ultimately makes us better artists ourselves.

[magnus homestead]

Hi Davey,

Thanks for a good topic. I once long ago worked briefly in a jade carving shop under the supervision of a Chinese carver. He demonstrated the methods of productiuon carving of Buddhas, elephants, and such, as well as relief carving of whole garden scenes with bridges and figures, etc. Doug is spot on as to the methods. One person might for instance do only roughing out an elephant form, while another carver would cut in the details and then on to the quick polish and then a hot wax and finish.

You will find the same thing in jewelry manufacture. To the untrained eye these mass produced items will appear similar, but as Janel points out - when looked at closely, the differences are glaringly obvious.

I think we can only try to educate our clients and each other to the appreciation of a truly well carved piece done in the hands of a dedicated artist.

I am truly grateful to Janel and the other master artists who share so generously here on TCP.

Blessings and happy carving,

Magnus

[Davey]

Hi Magnus,

I'd like to thank you and Doug for all the advice and info. There are many things for me to learn in the art of small carving. It just takes time and being in a position to closely examine things. Having made miniature furniture on and off over the past twenty years I can now tell what country a piece is made in and in a lot of cases who made it. It's like everything else in life I suppose, once you know something it sticks, when you dont know you ask.

I get a thrill every day coming to look on the forum. There is always something new and kind people such as your good selves to help where ever possible.

 

Kind Regards

Davey

[Debbie]

I am sorry for jumping at just one view, I have seen 2 sweat shops that make small carvings and have been angry ever sence. When I see work that I can recognise from this one shop in Tiawan(sp) I just remember what I saw and it brings back bad memories. Please excuse me.

Regards,

Debbie

[Davey]

I am sorry for jumping at just one view, I have seen 2 sweat shops that make small carvings and have been angry ever sence. When I see work that I can recognise from this one shop in Tiawan(sp) I just remember what I saw and it brings back bad memories. Please excuse me.

Regards,

Debbie

 

Debbie,

There's no need to apologize. During my time in the navy I saw lots of similar places and can understand your feelings.

 

Regards

Davey

[Scott]

The more one looks and educates they eye, the more one can distinguish between tool work that is obviously from a rotary burr versus that from a handle chisel,gouge, or scraper.

I'm interested in what you are saying here, can you or someone give an example? I could look at a master piece and a quick carve side by side and not be able to tell the difference. I find the same thing looking at Maori carvings at different web sites, one site will have works done by master carvers with price ranges of $55 to hundreds of dollars where, other sites will have similar carvings for $10 to $20 or sometimes even less. I have noticed that some of the carvings that are offered for lower prices are very low quality and you can see things such as tooling marks, curves and lines that do not flow correctly. One of the things about Maori, Hawaiian, and Polynesian carvings is that most carvings are of ancient artifacts, symbols, and designs so there is no real copy right and it is up to the carvers expertise where quality is concerned.

 

I read an article about a master carver of 39 years from New Zealand who went to China and taught his carving techniques and now China has capitalized on this and are pumping out Maori, Hawaiian, and Polynesian carvings for pennies on the dollar, the thing is that these Chinese carvings are really pretty good just, mass produced. One point that should be considered is, there are people out there that could never afford to pay high prices for a masters works but still would like to own similar carvings or even resin casts and $20 to $100 just might be in their price range, to some it doesn't have to be perfect to be enjoyed.

[Doug Sanders]

Using the tiger as an example, have a look at the rear right paw. Each toe is delineated by what I'd put money on it as being a rotary tool. Again around the muzzle, nose and mouth- the line which is carved is of even width and starts with a round mark. Gouges will leave lines of varying depth and tension. The nostrils on the tiger were just done as if writing with a pen. When I look at this piece, I can't help thinking that it was done in the quickest way possible. The stripes are almost put in as an afterthought to make this a tiger instead of another cat. If you look at a lot of these low-price wooden carvings offered online, they all have the same spherical black eyes with lids carved the same way, whether rabbit, mouse, or cat. As Janel said, no thought was put into the base that the creature is standing on.

It should be remembered that rotary tools, for the most part, grind and scrape at wood- grain direction and density matter little as fibers are chewed up. Edge tools when sharp will cut and sever fibers cleanly, leaving a completely different appearance. Lastly, when polishing is done with a rotating pad, just the high areas of a small carving will receive a shine- just another point to consider

 

Scott- you mention being able to look at a masterpiece and a quick carve side by side and not being able to tell the difference. If that's truly the case, I think one of two things is going on: The work isn't really a masterpiece or Your skills of discernment need some practice. I mean this as politely as possible. I had a friend explain to me once that everyone stands to learn 'visual literacy' in as much as we learn to read, or count and work with numbers. One acquires this by looking at as much as possible and really trying to disect what is seen.

 

 

Which of these camels is the copy and which is the 19th century original?

[Brent Duty]

Using the tiger as an example, have a look at the rear right paw. Each toe is delineated by what I'd put money on it as being a rotary tool. Again around the muzzle, nose and mouth- the line which is carved is of even width and starts with a round mark. Gouges will leave lines of varying depth and tension. The nostrils on the tiger were just done as if writing with a pen. When I look at this piece, I can't help thinking that it was done in the quickest way possible. The stripes are almost put in as an afterthought to make this a tiger instead of another cat. If you look at a lot of these low-price wooden carvings offered online, they all have the same spherical black eyes with lids carved the same way, whether rabbit, mouse, or cat. As Janel said, no thought was put into the base that the creature is standing on.

It should be remembered that rotary tools, for the most part, grind and scrape at wood- grain direction and density matter little as fibers are chewed up. Edge tools when sharp will cut and sever fibers cleanly, leaving a completely different appearance. Lastly, when polishing is done with a rotating pad, just the high areas of a small carving will receive a shine- just another point to consider

 

Scott- you mention being able to look at a masterpiece and a quick carve side by side and not being able to tell the difference. If that's truly the case, I think one of two things is going on: The work isn't really a masterpiece or Your skills of discernment need some practice. I mean this as politely as possible. I had a friend explain to me once that everyone stands to learn 'visual literacy' in as much as we learn to read, or count and work with numbers. One acquires this by looking at as much as possible and really trying to disect what is seen.

 

 

Which of these camels is the copy and which is the 19th century original?

 

I'll bite. I think the top one is the original. The folds are smooth well defined with no tool marks as well as the ears have depth and have been polished inside of the ear. To be honest I like the bottom one. It's hard to really see the quality of the top piece through a poor photo. I'm a newbie so what do I know

[Davey]

Hi Doug,

Thats a good piece of instruction, Doug. Many thanks

Davey

[Natasha]

Hi Friends!

A bigger part of such "netsuke" was done from pressed bone dust! The others were done with 3D graver-machine! Rotary poishing, some dyes and glued plastic pieces and..... o-la-la a netsuke!

[Scott]

Which of these camels is the copy and which is the 19th century original?

It has taken me awhile to study the photos and think about what you said and I'm going to say that the smaller picture of the camels on the left is the copy. The first thing I noticed was the difference in the carving marks on the humps depicting hair, in the small photo on the left the carved marks are large deep and not much thought was taken in their placement. In the larger photo on the right there are also fine detail accent cuts around the tail, ears, and the eyes.

 

Yes, you are right my skills of discernment need some practice as I am new to carving and I need to learn. When I first got interested in carving I was under the impression that everything was done with rotary tools but once I started my first piece I found that it was not possible to do and get the results that I was looking for.

 

Thanks for your reply and photographic example.

[Doug Sanders]

Nice sleuthing

My eyes went to the hair marks too. The right one has much finer hair work not only on the humps, but around the eyes and ears too. Also, have a look at the right hand carving's eyes. The artist really got in there and carved the orbits, and the sphere of the eye, on the left, a hole was drilled and a little black bead glued in. Finally, the necks and heads on the fake are really too big in proportion to the bodies.

 

I'll see if I can't find some other carvings to compare. This is a bit like those comics in the newspaper where you try to see what's different between the two sets of similar drawings.

 

-Doug

[DreamingDragonDesigns]

Using the tiger as an example, have a look at the rear right paw. Each toe is delineated by what I'd put money on it as being a rotary tool. Again around the muzzle, nose and mouth- the line which is carved is of even width and starts with a round mark. Gouges will leave lines of varying depth and tension. The nostrils on the tiger were just done as if writing with a pen. When I look at this piece, I can't help thinking that it was done in the quickest way possible. The stripes are almost put in as an afterthought to make this a tiger instead of another cat. If you look at a lot of these low-price wooden carvings offered online, they all have the same spherical black eyes with lids carved the same way, whether rabbit, mouse, or cat. As Janel said, no thought was put into the base that the creature is standing on.

It should be remembered that rotary tools, for the most part, grind and scrape at wood- grain direction and density matter little as fibers are chewed up. Edge tools when sharp will cut and sever fibers cleanly, leaving a completely different appearance. Lastly, when polishing is done with a rotating pad, just the high areas of a small carving will receive a shine- just another point to consider

 

Scott- you mention being able to look at a masterpiece and a quick carve side by side and not being able to tell the difference. If that's truly the case, I think one of two things is going on: The work isn't really a masterpiece or Your skills of discernment need some practice. I mean this as politely as possible. I had a friend explain to me once that everyone stands to learn 'visual literacy' in as much as we learn to read, or count and work with numbers. One acquires this by looking at as much as possible and really trying to disect what is seen.

 

 

Which of these camels is the copy and which is the 19th century original?

 

The eyes, the style, and the lines on the neck and the lines that define the legs give it away. The one on the right is the original.

 

 

As a flexshaft carver, I would like to point out that very skillful use of rotary tools can produce VERY fine results.

The fault lies in the fact that the Chinese made junk doesn't show skillful use of anything, not even glue, and they aren't using more than one size of burr. Sandpaper is just as important in rotary carving as in any other type. Using any one tool from start to finish cannot produce the results of a varied selection, where tool is suited to purpose.

I wouldn't have paid more than $3 for that tiger. *shudder*

LJ

[Toothy]

Hi Doug

 

Thanks for the lesson. I found it both interesting and very worthwhile. I did choose the correct one with little difficulty. I am however a believer that whatever tool does the job, it is the correct tool. Every tool needs to be learnt; rotary, scraper, chisel, burin etc and only through practice does one attain proficiency and the ability to produce true works of art.

 

Toothy

[Guest Clive Hallam]

I've resurrected this thread as I think it's relevant to the economic shake up that we all now face.

 

While most of us are aware of the mass produced dross produced in the Hong Kong carving shops.. I think its a mistake to assume that all of those craftsmen are unskilled. On the contrary.. I believe some of them are extraordinarily skilled.. I would challenge anybody to make a copy of the camel piece in under an hour... and that's how quick some of these guys can work. The question I therefore put to you all is what do you think the quality would be like if given 24 hours or longer to produce a piece?

 

... the scary reality is that times have changed and a lot of those craftsmen are now getting the opportunities that we "artists" in the west have enjoyed for a long time... I wonder if we'll handle the competition?

[fkvesic]

Considering it's taken me two and a half months, admittedly working on it part-time, to produce a first netsuke, these carvers would beat me hands down. It's just as well I'm not looking to making a living from what's now a leisure-time activity.

 

The difficulty for Hong Kong and Chinese workers is, I suspect, that they see themselves at present as mass producers and not master carvers. Some of the work is crude and dire, but some is exquisite, even given that the carvings are copies and with fake signatures. I've bought three pieces myself, not because I was taken in, but because the quality of the workmanship was first class, in my opinion, and affordable. As standards and aspirations rise in China/HK and some of the finer carvers with some nous try making their own original works and break out of mass-producing, if economic conditions allow them to do it, so prices of the good stuff will rise and master craftsman will be signing their own pieces.

 

Yes, it will affect the rest of the art/craft market for contemporary netsuke, but quality will always hold its own, though competition is likely to be stiffer. The real competition will begin when and if collectors stop regarding all HK/C output as trash and come to regard the best pieces as works of art in themselves.

[Doug Sanders]

I'm not assuming that the carvers are unskilled, just that the carvings show lack of quality, if you see what I mean. I agree that a great deal of skill comes from repetition and familiarity, but I'd venture that it would take some time to break out of the mold of these designs. I think we all get stuck in routines and means of expression that can be tough to break through. Would you agree that some time would have to pass before something of worthwhile expression and originality could be achieved by a factory carver? I know it's just supposition, but I'm basing this on just basic human tendencies of habit. In some ways these people are machinists- faithfully turing out many copies of a design as accurately as possible. And nothing against machinists- the ones I've know have had great technical skill with their tools, but they can lack creativity and 'artistic' skill when it comes to striving for originality.

[Guest Clive]

Yes.. I agree with both your views.. thanks for the replies, Frada and Dougie.. I think I was just wondering just how some of the better craftsmen would make the transition from factory copyist to artists interested in their own personal expression. I know some of the factory brush and ink "copyists" are making the transition.. I remember reading somewhere about an exhibition in Germany or Austria last year that featured a few. I don't know much about it other than it got some critical success.

 

Regards

Clive