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Japanese Alloys


Karl Carvalho

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Aloha Jim,

 

Cool story. Was not trying to sandbag you there. :D The roots of shirome sound historically archaic and arcane. Perfect for a quest. I will check with my sources here and in Nevada to see what can be revealed.

I was having a conversation with my wife's back when she turned and said "You need an EDAX or an EDS (energy dispersive spectroscope), and I think I know where one is." It is used for elemental analysis. (I used to use a quantometer the size of a room 27 years ago, but that's another story.) If we get far enough and lucky, we could check our finds against reference samples and historical records. Hmmmm....

If I could be so presumptuous, a coarse outline would go something like:

a) historical research/ prior analysis

b ) locating material components

c) i)smelting and refining from original material- Plan A

ii)smelting and refining using replica formula - Plan B

d) analysis

e) testing

f) disbursement.

 

And the short list of candidates would be:

1) yamagane

2) shirome

3) nigurome (whatever that is)

4) ?

 

One can dream, can't one? So, to paraphrase Sir Doyle..."Members, is the game afoot?"

 

KC

 

ps - I know time is rationed for all of us. Thanks in advance for any help.

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Hi Karl,

 

as Jim said "shirome" is or was a byproduct of metalrefing. Every japanese province that runs a copper mine has it own distinctive shirome and raw copper depending on the ore found there. The prepositions used are derived from this fact. (azuki iro - is a deep red color like the one of the soja beans of the same name)

All that is very interesting but it leaves the question: Does make all this knowlegde better metalwork? :D

 

Berlin Karl

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Guest ford hallam

Good Morning Karl, Fellas, Ladies,

 

once again our brother in Berlin has hit the nail on the head :) , a wise cautionary note not to get too caught up in the overly technical. There is no denying the appeal of this sort of arcana but ultimately the question we must ask ourselves is "how does this information add to our creative expression?".

 

This kind of 'research" can very easily become a substitute for or an avoidance technique of the "real" work of making :D .

 

For what it's worth; I'm working on a fairly lengthy and exhaustive essay/overview on this whole Japanese alloy subject. I'm collating all the known references, where relevant, and adding my own analysis' and results of my own experimentation. Because of the complexity of the subject I'm tackling the different alloys individually but the Yamagane/shakudo/ aspect is dealt with as one and leads to further discussions of the varieties of shirome and their far more common addition to Japanese casting bronzes. Shirome is still utilized by traditional casters in Japan, but that is a "secret" :o

 

I've got to go out for a while but I'll add some more detailed info later today, and some useful images of patinated samples.

 

regards, Ford :D

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After musing about my experiment in non-ferrous smelting, it seems obvious that using a higher grade of ore would give you a lot more metal for about the same labor, so I'll be looking for better rocks before I do a real smelting/refining campaign. :D

I crushed the slag for the two rough smelts and collected more metal to de-iron, so total output of the experiment will probably be more like 150g.

 

Native copper would give you a lot of metal for your labor, but a quick survey of trace element literature on the web reveals that there is a big drop in contaminates - native metal is cleaner than smelted metal, and oxide/carbonate/sulfate ores are cleaner than sulfide/arsenide/antimonide ores in the smelted category. Archaeometallurgists apparently differentiate those classes of metal source by looking at the levels of arsenic etc.

Ford, did you say you had some Yamagane analysis data?

Karl, are you saying your wife can do elemental analysis?

Anyone out there have an electron microprobe they aren’t using? XRF? INAA? :o

This kind of 'research" can very easily become a substitute for or an avoidance technique of the "real" work of making

Yes, it’s true – however, if I make my own copper, use it in a piece and call it ‘yamagane’ it’d be nice to know if it was similar to the historical ‘yamagane’ – even if I call it ‘unrefined copper’ most metalsmithing-informed readers would assume I was saying ‘yamagane,’ so doing enough research to make sure I’m not a liar is okay by me! :)

 

post-1173-1181651947.gif

 

Technical examination of ancient South American metals: Some examples from Colombia, Peru and Argentina

DAVID A. SCOTT

http://www.lablaa.org/blaavirtual/publicac...445/endi02a.htm

“…Previous studies (Wayman 1985) have shown that some of the most important elements to distinguish native copper from smelted copper are: arsenic, nickel, selenium, antimony, gold and sometimes silver. The concentration of elements such as cobalt, zinc, tin, mercury and iron have not been found to be generally diagnostic. In the case of native copper, the levels of arsenic, nickel, selenium and antimony may be in the low parts per million region or below detection limits, whereas smelted copper may contain several hundred parts per million of arsenic, a few hundred ppm of nickel, 10-100 ppm of selenium and 10-400 ppm of antimony.”

“…The Colombian copper objects are characterized by very low or undetectable amounts of arsenic which shows that oxidized copper ores were used in their manufacture, such as cuprite and malachite.”

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Ford wrote:

There is no denying the appeal of this sort of arcana but ultimately the question we must ask ourselves is "how does this information add to our creative expression?".

 

I would to make a comment about creating art. This is in no way a criticism of anyone or anything just an observation based on many years experience creating art.

 

I have gone through the process that many of you are going through, building forges and furnaces both casting and burnout, alloying metals etc. Over the years I have found that doing everything myself took huge amounts of time away from creating art. All the time I spent casting a piece (and those of you who have cast pieces know how much time is involved) could have been spent creating new pieces. In the long run it was much more expensive in time and money doing it myself rather than having a good foundry do it for me. There are great people out there who can machine metal, turn wood, cast metal etc. we don't have to do everything ourselves. There is also the cost of the tools required to do those many tasks. At some point you have to decide what adds to or detracts from our art.

Dick

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Guest ford hallam
Oh my. :(

 

care to elaborate Jim? :huh:

 

Jeff, Yes, I instigated a series of analyses of confirmed yamagane tsuba held in a couple of private collections in England and in the British Museum. Susan La Niece did the actual "clever" bit, I merely gathered the samples. We also tested very early shakudo pieces.

 

The general ranges of other metals present in these 6 yamagane ( all circa 1550 )pieces were as follows;

Ag 0.1 ~2.4%

As 0.2 ~1%

Pb 0.1 ~0.2% ( one sample did have 0.9% though)

one sample had Sn 0.1%

one sample had Zn 1.1%

the remainder being copper.

 

These levels of Arsenic would seem to confirm that these pieces traditionally referred to as yamagane are indeed made of imperfectly ( as opposed to completely unrefined) refined native copper. Shakudo made after 1600 tends to show no trace of Arsenic, however some analysis' of late 18th cent and 19th cent fittings do again show traces of As. Interestingly however, not in other copper alloys. Prof Gowland (1894) describes , presumably quoting from older, Japanese, written material, the use of shirome in making shakudo.

 

Gowland's own analysis of shirome ( from Echizen province ) is as follows;

 

Copper 72.7%

lead 8.53%

Arsenic 11.37%

Antimony 4.27

Tin 0.93%

Iron 0.13%

Silver 1.33%

Sulphur 0.33%

Zinc Nil

Gold trace

 

This is an average of a number of samples, from what I can make out, so naturally there will be some variation. Personally I don't think re-creating this mixture would pose too much of a problem. Perhaps Mr Sakai ought not to have laughed so loud, hey Jim ;) .

 

I also think that to accurately call a metal yamagane you'd have to follow the general procedures that the pre 1600 smelters in Japan were using. I think we have enough understanding of these processes to make some educated guesses and that by comparing the results with known yamagane samples from that time we could fairly claim to have made the same. That's if the results are comparable. The alloy that Kano Natsuo developed is an approximation of the earlier alloy and although it looks similar I think it should be described as such, ie; a simulated yamagane. Prof. Gowlands paper paper on the subject "Japanese pseudo-speise (Shirome) and it's relations to the purity of Japanese copper and the presence of Arsenic in Japanese bronze" ( they knew how to title a paper in those days :blink: ) describes in some detail the various smelting and refining processes in use at the time, 1894. He points out that the process had not changed much in 250 years.

This is a woodblock print of a Japanese copper smelter at work, from Gowlands paper. I'd suggest wearing boots though! :D

 

 

I'll get round to photographing those samples I mentioned earlier.

 

hope this helps somewhat :)

regards, Ford

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Guest ford hallam

p.s. Jeff, thanks for posting that table of analyses it's fascinating to compare with those from Japan. Something I'll get to in a while.

 

And please don't get me wrong, I was in no way criticizing this particular avenue of exploration just echoing Karl's comment that we must ask ourselves what it adds to our individual work.. You've answered that question for yourself, ....as must each of us, for ourselves.

 

In fact, as I said, I'll be very interested to learn from your experiences, should you care to share them, and if you start producing historically authentic yamagane and shirome, commercially, I'll be your first customer and proudly credit the source. :blink:

 

regards, Ford

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In fact, as I said, I'll be very interested to learn from your experiences, should you care to share them, and if you start producing historically authentic yamagane and shirome, commercially, I'll be your first customer and proudly credit the source. :huh:

 

Hi there,

I totally agree with Ford. Hope nobody felt upset from my comment in the earlier post.

The woodcut comes from the Kodo Zuroku is made by Tokei. The late Prof. Gowland has hidden that source. :blink:

 

Karl

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Aloha All,

 

I love waking up to you guys. :) Well, it looks like I might have stepped in it. My little outline was meant as a starting point, an organization tool for thoughts, not necessarily a plan of action. We could spend all of our time on a, or skip to e).

 

Dick

I defer to your obvious experience. The toxic nature of these metals would make them best left to pros or other countries. The "end of the rainbow" dream would be to have a member walk up to a native refinery and be told "there's some out back, help yourself". First, we have to find them.

 

Karl

Hey, any sources for shirome, nigurome out there?

Of course the art comes first. But we have to have an idea of what we are using, hence my references to analysis. My read from these discussions is that composition is all over the map, literally. How we would adjust and use them is the real art. :huh:

 

Jeff

Be careful (and keep an eye out for OSHA and the Oakland FD :blink: ). Of course you are free to experiment as you wish (and market to the highest bidder ;)). Did you mean re. electron microprobe, wave dispersive spectroscopy? Thanks for the chart. :)

 

Ford

Nigurome has to my knowledge not been definitely identified in any Japanese text. I've made up various samples...

I don't even know what this stuff is yet, but these discussions have raised my awareness exponentially. I don't expect "us" to make tons of the stuff (like the cooperative tatara of the bladesmiths). So I "stirred the pot"; I've just been observing the master. :D

 

Jim

Sometimes the search is just as good as the find.

Well, I guess I did sandbag you. Sorry. :) I could think of few things more fun than us kicking around the Nevada desert and checking out old mine sites. With a cooler back in the car. :)

 

Look, I think we would agree that most of us would like a chance to work with these materials. My dream would be to go to class and be told "shirome, here a chunk in the drawer". Until then, I'll keep looking....and learning. :(

 

KC

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Aloha Jim,

 

 

Was not trying to sandbag you there. :blink: The roots of shirome sound historically archaic and arcane. Perfect for a quest.

One can dream, can't one? So, to paraphrase Sir Doyle..."Members, is the game afoot?"

 

KC

 

No blame, my friend, I just had a hunch about what was to come ;) .

 

Your outline seems a right sensible way to proceed toward the goal of what can be imagined. Who's to say where our efforts will take us(or not). Let's not get too far from that cooler! :huh:

 

 

Hope nobody felt upset from my comment in the earlier post.

Karl

 

No upset here :D . For all your knowledge on these matters, it doesn't seem to have knitted your brow or made you a worse artist!

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"how does this information add to our creative expression?".

 

This kind of 'research" can very easily become a substitute for or an avoidance technique of the "real" work of making :blink: .

 

Shirome is still utilized by traditional casters in Japan, but that is a "secret" :huh:

 

regards, Ford ;)

 

Ford, correct me if I'm mistaken but your placing the word research in quotes seems to dismiss somebody's efforts as trivial. Also who's to say that this sort of research is inherently of a lesser value than producing art, or that research might not in fact be that person's deep calling. It could just as easily be that pursuing "art" is a distraction from remarkable discovery. I would fully agree with your later post that we must all answer these questions for ourselves.

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Guest ford hallam

hello Jim,

 

sorry if you took my placing the word "research" in inverted commas as being suggestive of a dismissive attitude on my part. I hope no-one else did. :)

 

That was certainly not my intention, I merely "highlighted" the word in that way to suggest a difference in terms of it's application in purely scientific sense. In this field we tread a delicate tightrope between the subjective area of Art research and hard, empirical scientific research. Naturally, both approaches are important, but with regards to metal analysis ( hard science) or assessment of historical documents ( subjective, based on experience and qualification) I would contend that we need to be very clear as where the boundaries are. For myself, I think I can justly claim to have done as much " research" ( note the inverted commas :( ) as anyone, in terms of reviewing extant data and writings. However I would hesitate to offer that aspect of my knowledge and experience as research. For research to have any significant value it must firstly be grounded in a clear scientific methodology.

 

The use of the word "research", without any qualification renders it, ultimately, meaningless. I placed the word in inverted commas to indicate that lack of expressed precision.

Incidentally this is also why I subsequently place the word "work" in inverted commas, to suggest the undefined nature of the word in it's present context. You evidently didn't feel that I was being dismissive of any-one's work there though. :huh:

 

I try to to very careful in terms of applying meaning to words where there may be some ambiguity with regards to the consensual meaning, hence my use of those inverted commas.

 

None of my comments were intended to judge the relative "value" ( note the use of inverted commas, again :blink: ) of any approach and the suggestion that pursuing "art" ( more commas :) ) might be a distraction from a remarkable discovery ( presumably you mean in some other, unrelated, field ) is simply too idiotic to really respond to. :D

 

I'm still a little in the dark as to your " oh my" comment though. ;)

 

sincerely yours, Ford

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Gentlemen

 

This is a trick question. There is no correct answer. I have been involved in research for most of my life. Even as a cabinetmaker; I am still involved to this day.

In our labs, there were two groups (among others). Basic research and technology transfer/applications, who each had their own point of view. BR believed that research for the sake of itself was "pure". I saw post docs go off on tangents and never come back. TT/A were so single-minded on the latest "killer app" that they would miss exciting opportunities. The balance of these two points is the trick, and to the benefit of all.

Let's get off this semantics kick and lead by example. We have an opportunity here to bring together information that is dispersed around the world and produce work (using said info) that will honor the forerunners of these disciplines. That is something most "pure" academics and data starved working stiffs would envy. Let's not blow it - for the sake of the forum, it's members and ourselves.

 

KC

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Guest ford hallam

Aloha Karl,

 

while I appreciate your desire to pour oil on the water, so to speak, I must insist that this is not a trick question at all :huh: . The suggestion was made that my use of inverted commas around the word " research" implied a dismissal by me of that activity by certain other people. I hope I have stated my case in this regard clearly enough for my meaning not to be further misconstrued.

 

For myself, I think I have more than demonstrated that I have done my fair share of " research', whatever that may be taken to mean, and have been more than wiling to pass on my experience and expertise( If I can be so bold ;) ). In addition, I think also I've demonstrated the application of my efforts in my own work, at least to my own satisfaction. :blink:

 

Discussions of this nature are never just semantics, the expression of truth never is.

 

respectfully, Ford

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Aloha Ford,

 

Okay. I'll give this another try. There are two aspects to this turn of the thread. One is academic, the other personal. I can only address the academic.

I understood your question - "how does this information add to our creative expression?" to point out the potential for distraction. My answer is...I'm frustrated. How do I fill my empty bench? (Well, I actually work on a lichee stump.) Where do I go? Reactive Metals? What do I ask them for? Please Sir, can you make me a special batch of X, with Y and Z in it? Hold the Q. When someone like one of our members steps up and says "I'll give it a try.", I'm all for it. I feel obligated to help anyway that I can. Being isolated way out here, I can't drive over, so gathering info is the best that I can do.

Please resolve personal issues as we need each other to do this.

 

KC

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sorry if you took my placing the word "research" in inverted commas as being suggestive of a dismissive attitude on my part. I hope no-one else did. :(

 

None of my comments were intended to judge the relative "value" ( note the use of inverted commas, again :blink: ) of any approach and the suggestion that pursuing "art" ( more commas :D ) might be a distraction from a remarkable discovery ( presumably you mean in some other, unrelated, field ) is simply too idiotic to really respond to. ;)

 

I'm still a little in the dark as to your " oh my" comment though. :huh:

 

sincerely yours, Ford

 

Ford, semantics aside, I accept that you meant no disrespect to anyone else's sense of research by your punctuation, if I take you correctly.

 

Glad also to hear that you weren't making judgement about the relative value of research vs art.

 

My "Oh my" comment was an exclamation of apprehension at the potential for protracted discussion, and attendant distraction from this valuable thread, that I felt coming in order to clear up these questions. Probably it would have been better if I had waited until later when I had time to make my full post.

 

As far as your dismissal of my other comment as "too idiotic to really respond to", well, what can I say? It's unfortunate not to maintain a respectful atmosphere. Sorry it's come to that.

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KC,

 

Why would you ask Reactive Metals to make an alloy to a particular specification? wouldn't it be better to contact the source of their metal http://www.shiningwave.com/. Maybe contact Phil and see what he has laying around or ask if he is interested in joining the conversation here on the forum. There's a possibility he has what you are looking for in a scrap bucket in the back corner of his shop. there are many more sources then just the people here on this forum.

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In the long run it was much more expensive in time and money doing it myself rather than having a good foundry do it for me.

There really isn’t any reason to do it all yourself, unless you want to.

I once met a successful art jeweler, one who seemed to make a comfortable living at it. She would make a prototype, send it to a semi-third-world country for replication, the hundreds of replicas would go to another semi-third-world country to be hand-engraved with her signature, she would do a quality check and ship them off to the galleries that showed her lines. I’m sure she had a lot of time to do the designing and fabricating of the prototypes, which is certainly art. And had a pretty good business model, which is another art. Since then I’ve met one other successful art jeweler, with a different business model, but they seem to be a rare breed.

I find that working back to the elemental beginnings of a material gives me a visceral and intimate connection with my ‘art’, it informs the entire creative process and enriches the experience for me. Hopefully it enriches the piece, too! But I don’t feel like everything needs to be made that way, I think the experience can inform other works as well.

 

Be careful (and keep an eye out for OSHA and the Oakland FD ). Of course you are free to experiment as you wish (and market to the highest bidder ).

Firstly, I would like to thank Karl (Wunderlich) for reminding me (via his early safety warning in this thread) that my membership in the American Society of Safety Engineers had just lapsed, I am now a member in good standing again. :(

Cal-OSHA only cares if you are killing innocent employees, you can damage yourself all you want to without incurring their wrath. (To avoid killing oneself, remember to engineer process controls, and only if that is not feasible go for personal protective equipment to avoid exposure to dangerous contaminates ;) ).

I did receive a visit from the OFD, back when I was experimenting with different furnace designs, due to a call from a concerned neighbor. (the 3000 degree tiki torch is an attention getter!) They didn’t find anything out of line, but did make sure to ask me if I was doing it commercially, which, it was implied, would kick in a whole raft of extra regulations. I still feel that smelting is not an economically viable proposition, and will be very surprised should I find it so in the future…so I think me and the OFD are fine. :huh:

Did you mean re. electron microprobe, wave dispersive spectroscopy?

No, just another means of trace element determination, that I am familiar with from meteorite analysis. EMP, INAA, XRF, PIXIE, so many acronyms! :blink: EMP does use WDS or EDS of X-rays to determine the chemical make-up of a sample, on a very small scale. Not really necessary for alloy analysis unless you have some micro-segregation going on.

 

These levels of Arsenic would seem to confirm that these pieces traditionally referred to as yamagane are indeed made of imperfectly (as opposed to completely unrefined) refined native copper.

If Japanese ores are similar to N. & S American ores, the arsenic levels appear to confirm non-native copper, i.e. levels of 1,000 - 10,000 ppm Arsenic etc. imply smelted from secondary, complex ores and not naturally occurring metallic copper, or if not comlex ore then deliberate addition of impurities.

However, I’m just basing that on a couple papers, of relatively old age that may have been supplanted by more recent research, I’ll keep digging until I find a consensus.

But the native copper = more pure seems to hold from S. America through Minnesota and Ontario all the way over to the near east.

 

I could think of few things more fun than us kicking around the Nevada desert and checking out old mine sites. With a cooler back in the car.

Now you’re talking! :D

 

Phil Baldwin knows what it is all about. :)

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Aloha Dan,

 

Those are very good suggestions. Thanks. I profess that I was/am ignorant of the relationship between Reactive Metals and Shining Wave. I thought (wrongly it seems) that one was a subset of the other, with Mr. Baldwin in both Cos. I had actually met a copper artist from Seattle that I intended to ask for an introduction to him. (We island folk can be funny that way.) I was just hoping to educate myself before contact so as not to make too big a fool of myself (too late). Recent revelations concerning materials completely new to me tell me it would be a lop-sided conversation.

My Google search produced hundreds of possible contacts. I just don't know them yet. While my deal with Mike Sakmar went very well, the mokume he sent was unsuitable for what I was trying to do. It was not his fault; I just asked for the wrong thing.

I would be extremely happy to see Mr. Baldwin here, if we could be civil to each other and him. :blink:

 

Jeff

Thanks for sticking to it. I think that I am beginning to see the relationship of native copper>yamagane<kuromido as suggested by Ford. Please keep us informed. :huh:

 

KC

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Hi folks,

 

it seems that we come to a discussion of a kind of art philosophical matters.

 

We came across of three role models of artists. One, the "successful art jeweler" Jeff mentioned is proberbly not in our focus.

The next one is a kind of craftsman-artist like they lived in the european Renaissance or till the decline of the bakufu in Japan. These guys were integrated into an art industry totally differend from ours nowadays.

They had a specific social class as clients, traditional themes to depict and traditional technique. There were specialists on the use for them (helpers for carving and grinding pigments, nanako-shi, casters...), even people were around who kept the house for them. This way they had a lot of time to concentrate on there business. ( TV wasnt invented yet) They made ART (just take a look on Rembrandts work or Natsuo).

 

Nowaday an artist is somewhat different: in most cases the keep there house for themselfs, they have to concern oneselfs for clients, doing advertisement, looking for materials and new themes to express. They even looking for new techniques to satify the clients. Not much time left to concentrate on the things into the studio.

 

It is always good doing basic research but there are scientists out there who already done this. (Paul Craddock; Susan La Niece e.g.) They wrote articles one can read. Some companies providing the metals needed.

It is the decision of everyone of us to reinvent the weel but remember: life is short. It is a long road to go to be able to say things in a work of art.

Sometimes an "simple" engraving done with a burin provides more expression than complex pieces.

 

respectfully, Karl

 

P.S. Nobody wants to blow the forum but some points are in need to be discussed.

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Hi folks,

 

it seems that we come to a discussion of a kind of art philosophical matters.

 

We came across of three role models of artists. One, the "successful art jeweler" Jeff mentioned is proberbly not in our focus.

The next one is a kind of craftsman-artist like they lived in the european Renaissance or till the decline of the bakufu in Japan. These guys were integrated into an art industry totally differend from ours nowadays.

They had a specific social class as clients, traditional themes to depict and traditional technique. There were specialists on the use for them (helpers for carving and grinding pigments, nanako-shi, casters...), even people were around who kept the house for them. This way they had a lot of time to concentrate on there business. ( TV wasnt invented yet) They made ART (just take a look on Rembrandts work or Natsuo).

 

Nowaday an artist is somewhat different: in most cases the keep there house for themselfs, they have to concern oneselfs for clients, doing advertisement, looking for materials and new themes to express. They even looking for new techniques to satify the clients. Not much time left to concentrate on the things into the studio.

 

It is always good doing basic research but there are scientists out there who already done this. (Paul Craddock; Susan La Niece e.g.) They wrote articles one can read. Some companies providing the metals needed.

It is the decision of everyone of us to reinvent the weel but remember: life is short. It is a long road to go to be able to say things in a work of art.

Sometimes an "simple" engraving done with a burin provides more expression than complex pieces.

 

respectfully, Karl

 

P.S. Nobody wants to blow the forum but some points are in need to be discussed.

 

I agree with what you are saying for the most part. I wonder though about the time and place chosen to bring it up. This is a technical thread it is not about art directly, it is about alloys, elements, ores, process, and historic metallurgy. The threads intention is mostly technical and it was going along with great energy. Perhaps the warnings about getting wrapped up in the technical aspect are best saved for a new topic rather than in the middle of a good thing. Does this aspect of art being detracted by process need to be discussed obviously yes, but the concept is not limited to metal work and there are Sub-forums on TCP just for this kind of discussion.

regards,

Patrick

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Guest ford hallam

Hi Jim,

 

I'm pleased and relieved that you were able to accept and appreciate my clarification regarding my earlier comments.

 

There does however, appear to be a consensus here that seems to agree with you, that my calling calling this statement of yours; "It could just as easily be that pursuing "art" is a distraction from remarkable discovery. " "idiotic" was impolite and uncivil.

 

It still seems to me that your suggestion that an activity in one area might be a "distraction" which might preclude the possibility of a " discovery" in another area is just too " wrong headed" to respond to seriously. It is as if you're saying that had Van Gogh not been "distracted" by painting all those silly sunflowers he might have discovered Penicillin ;) .

 

Seems to me we've danced around this issue of blurred distinctions before. :huh:

 

I'm sorry that you find my style of argument and discussion too robust but I personally feel that not to challenge a nonsense statement like that would be a failure on my part. We entered into an argument ( in the unemotional sense of the word ), or discussion of a subject, I merely dismissed part of your argument as being essentially, indefensible. In a fair argument you now have the opportunity to prove me wrong, and thereby have the satisfaction of making me look idiotic. Even though I do that to myself enough anyway. :D

 

btw, just so we're clear here, me calling your comment idiotic is not the same as me calling you idiotic, that would just be rude. :(

 

I for one relish the rough and tumble of extended discussions as a way of honing my critical thinking and my responses. I really don't see why anyone should get their knickers in a knot over this anyway. Storms in teacups! :blink:

 

Anyway, I hope I've provided some useful technical information and data to the original theme of this thread and that my input, in that respect at least, may be of value.

 

now for tea.

 

sincere wishes to all, Ford

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...This is a technical thread it is not about art directly, it is about alloys, elements, ores, process, and historic metallurgy. The threads intention is mostly technical and it was going along with great energy. ...

 

Ok, I think you`re right with this. :blink:

 

Well, back on the track.

A short word on raw copper or "yamagane". from my own experience I know it is a rather brittle metal. (I used an old hand hammered european coppersheet I was able to purchase one time )

It work hardens faster than refined copper and when melted it seems to be more viscous than normal copper.

Personally when it comes to making shakudo I would prefer refined copper.

 

 

 

This is a ring I recently finished. I tried to make use from differnd "coppers" The sections with the Taka zogan (raised zogan) is the forementioned yamagane. The flat areas are high zink brass with inlayed shakudo splashes. One can see the colour difference between fine copper (raised inlay) and the ground. (An unwanted galvanic reaction took place between the shakudo and the brass :huh: - learning from every single piece)

 

best regards ;)

Berlin Karl

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I agree with what you are saying for the most part. I wonder though about the time and place chosen to bring it up. This is a technical thread it is not about art directly, it is about alloys, elements, ores, process, and historic metallurgy. The threads intention is mostly technical and it was going along with great energy. Perhaps the warnings about getting wrapped up in the technical aspect are best saved for a new topic rather than in the middle of a good thing. Does this aspect of art being detracted by process need to be discussed obviously yes, but the concept is not limited to metal work and there are Sub-forums on TCP just for this kind of discussion.

regards,

Patrick

 

Sounds reasonable to me.

 

Ford, perhaps another time and place. I'd rather see this thread move on.

 

Jim

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